Gray Areas in Spiritual matters (i.e. drinking, dancing, music)

stubbornkelly, Contrary to your post, "not studied enough", which is all I said and please don't add to what I said, is exactly the problem with those who have grey areas. THe original thread starter mentioned drinking, dancing, and music, areas which are most definitely not grey in the Bible. All are allowed and a cursory Bible study would have shown this.

MR

 

When I was A new cristian some 50 years ago most of my opinions were black or white I did not have the Knowledge or the maturity to see grey. to day thanks to The Holy Spirit I have a greater capicity to understand.And you might say there is no fool like and old fool.

 

Why is that? It's a perfectly Scriptural "suggestion." Heb. 5:11-14

That is exactly the Apostle's position in the afore-mentioned verses.

The Apostle wasn't code-talking. He said it straight out. I can see that I am physically more mature than an infant. Why is it that one who is spiritually mature cannot see that someone else is not?

How could the early church choose seven men "full of the Holy Ghost," or one who is "not a novice" to fill an office in the church?

What is the danger, in particular?

This sounds a lot like someone who wants to ride the fence. You're basically saying that issues are either right or wrong, but no one can really know.

 

Not to speak for subbornkelly - but I think the danger is that when one person or group of people decide that they alone know the absolute will and mind of God that tyranny and oppression soon follow.

 

Jim 1999

I must agree with you. When I received Christ as my Savior I was involved in all these areas (drinking, gambling, dancing, rock music, etc.) After I was saved these things were not an issue cause I did not need them. Call me old fassion but I became a "new creation" in Christ Jesus.

Richard

[ October 18, 2002, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: Bible Student ]

 

When one person or group of people decide that they alone know the absolute will and mind of God that tyranny and oppression soon follow.</font>[/QUOTE] Where was that suggested?

Truth by definition is exclusive. You either have it or you don't. The church is the pillar and ground of the truth, 1 Timothy 3:15. Some denominations are closer to the truth than others. We can't all be right.

Now, if you are saying that tyranny is when one person or group alone claim to have exclusive access to the truth, then I agree.

But if you are saying that we should consider that all groups and people have "their truth", how do you reconcile that with the verse I just cited?

[ October 18, 2002, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

mountainrun - I don't disagree that when someone doesn't know an answer, they may, indeed, not have studied enough. I may have used one of your statements as a springboard to the rest of mmy post, but I was not chiding you, or putting words in your mouth. If you thought so, perhaps you could point out to me where I quoted you or referred specifically to your post. You're certainly not the only person to have ever suggested - not even on this thread - that a person doesn't know because they haven't studied enough, and as I've said, that's not a position with which I disagree. But I also understand BrianT when he wrote, "Personally, I've found that sometimes, the more I study a subject the more gray it becomes. I used to think I had all the answers, and the more I study, the more I realize I don't."

My point, which some seem to have missed (and in complete fairness, perhaps I wasn't quite clear enough), is that in an argument or debate over specific acts, issues or interpretations, many of us (myself included) will use the "haven't studied enough" or "not mature enough" in order to fully refute whatever the person with whom they disagree has stated.

Aaron, I'm not in any way saying that we can't really know whether things are right or wrong. Not at all. I re-read what I wrote, and can't see that implication.

It is true that those who are more spiritually mature are more likely to have a better understanding of Scripture, and be able to better apply it to life. The danger I speak of is using such statements in debates and refusing to even try to understand how another person could come to their position. We must understand that however much we have studied, or however spiritually mature we are, there may be someone who has studied less, or who is less spiritually mature who has come to just as good, or perhaps even a better understanding of an issue, and may, in fact, have more clarity. There is much to be said for having a fresh set of eyes and ears.

What I find distasteful is the tabling of any argument on the basis of, "well, you must not be well studied," or "you're not spiritually mature enough - you clearly don't know any better." Further, it seems there is danger in assuming that the person with whom you disagree must be wrong. It seems that many times, we are afraid that we may be wrong, particularly when we believe strongly in our position, having come to it through study and reflection.

How easy is it to simply stop any further discussion by saying or thinking, "this person isn't as mature as I am," or "this person isn't as studied as I am?" Very.

I think sometimes we forget ourselves and the point of what we are doing when we shut down discussions in that manner. How many times has anyone thought to themselves that another person on this board just needs to study more, or needs to grow more, and then they'll see it my way? If you have, do you think the person with whom you've been debating isn't also thinking the exact same thing? And who is right? Most of us (again, myself included), need to take care that we are being truly mindful and not simply letting our egos take us away from humility.

I wrote, "I completely see the point that there are no grey areas, only that they seem grey to us. That does seem to be the most accurate. Similarly, I like the idea of disputable areas much better, as the word "disputable" indicates that the issue is black and white, just that there is disagreement as to whether the issue is black or white. We are the ones who must discern whether the issue is black or white, but that does not mean there is no concrete blackness or whiteness." Aaron, that doesn't sound like I'm saying no one can discern rightness or wrongness.

Here I'm not saying we need to doubt our own position; rather that sometimes we are so busy criticizing others, and working so hard to show them how wrong they are and how right we are, we forget (or refuse) to reflect and think on what they're really saying. They may have some wisdom that we choose to ignore because we're so busy telling them how wrong they are.

Should we not stand up for our convictions? Of course we should. To me, though, that does not conflict with working to understand another's position. If nothing else, perhaps if we know the direction from which they come, we can help them to see truth we have found.

[ October 18, 2002, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: stubbornkelly ]

 

Thank you for clarifying your position. I agree that no one should cop out of a debate on those grounds either.

Yet, I seldom see anyone copping out on those grounds. In my experiences the cop out is usually on the basis of "Well, that's okay for you, but my convictions are..."

 

Ah. That is to be equally avoided, IMNSHO.

 

I haven't really kept up with this debate over the past week, but I would like to offer a few opinions. Forgive me if I'm repeating previous arguments.

I guess one of the reasons this subject has elicited such spirited response is the use of "gray areas," a common term among moral relativists. Quite naturally, we reject the theory that there is no true good or evil. Among Christians, however, the term means something different entirely (at least in past discussions I've been a part of). Areas can be described as "gray" (or "disputed" or "subjective") if God has not given us clear instructions in that area. We are left to work it out on our own, guided by the Holy Spirit. The Bible says nothing about what kind of music we can compose or listen to, for example. Some believers are strongly opposed to Christian rock music, feeling that it too closely resembles secular rock and therefore does not (even, cannot) honor God. Others are moved and inspired by the same music in a way that they are not by traditional hymns, and persons have been saved at Christian rock concerts. It's hard to say that something doesn't honor God if it can be used to serve and glorify Him. Is Christian rock good or bad, then? There is no objective answer to that question. To say that only an immature and somewhat worldly believer would listen to that kind of music only indicates the experiences and biases of the speaker; it is not an indisputable moral principle. It's all a matter of opinion. If someone declares, "Not to God!" that statement may need some clarification. Perhaps God is only concerned whether something honors Him, and not on the exact form of the thing. We cannot be sure, but I would suggest that no music is inherently good or evil. It all depends on what you do with it (the content, not the form), and on the attitude you have in carrying it out. This principle would also apply to most other "gray areas."

Further, I would suggest (and this is no innovative concept) that there are things that are morally neutral. Watching football, painting a picture, eating a meal, sailing a boat, going hiking, reading a book, and thousands of other activities, are neither intrinsically good nor evil. I can sin in doing any of these things, or I can honor God by doing any of these things. It is a matter of conscience and is between my Lord and myself. They are gray areas in the sense that they are not forbidden or encouraged in Scripture. While I can never honor God by lying, stealing or committing adultery, I can either glorify Him or not by how responsibly I use my Christian liberty in the "gray areas." We cannot judge another in these areas unless we clearly know the mind of the one doing them. It's not our place to condemn others based on our own standards. (Although, being Baptists, we no doubt will continue to do so.)