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Intellectual salvation

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Brother Adam, Dec 22, 2001.

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  1. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Adam, I think the point is that the Holy Spirit leads us to the full knowledge of the truth (1 Corinthians 13:12), not that we start there in our Christian life, or that it is a prerequisite.
     
    #21 Helen, Dec 23, 2001
  2. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam New Member

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    "Adam, if I remember correctly, you were a Lutheran at one time. If that is correct, I see exactly where you're coming from (and if not, well, you're sounding like a Lutheran!)."

    Well- they don't have it all wrong! ;) Yes being raised for 14 years in the Lutheran church does have somewhat of an impact on a person. :D

    "The Lutherans like to use Jesus calling Lazarus from the tomb as an example of how spiritually dead we are; but there are at least a half dozen examples of people reaching out to Christ, as opposed to the one example of Jesus calling Lazarus from the tomb."

    So we aren't spiritually dead? Are these people who reach out to Christ much like the one who realized that Christ is the Savior (knowledge only given by the Father)?

    "Intellectual response? More like a realization of the hopelessness of our situation, and the realization that Christ is our salvation, and acceptance of His forgiveness." These aren't intellectualizations in the sense that we consciously take these steps and wham, we're saved; instead, it's more the work of the Holy Spirit convicting us and bringing us to God."

    Amen. This I can agree with. I don't have a problem saying that the knowledge of Christ as our Savior comes from God- but it isn't something we gain on our own.

    "The path you're going down is one that I'm discussing with a Wisconsin Synod Lutheran right now; she is trying to convince me that what happened is that one day I "woke up" because the Holy Spirit worked on me through the Word and I was saved."

    So the Holy Spirit didn't work through you? You came to life without the help of God? :confused:

    "In that regard, I almost agree; but she's taking it to the extreme that I had no say in the matter--even though she states that I can tell God "no.""

    Hrm...Interesting paradox. Do you believe in predestination? Just curious really.

    The premise doesn't work. If I have the ability to tell God "no," then how does God save me? Does He sneak up on me when I'm not looking, and indwell me?

    Look at the jailer in Acts 16; when he thought Paul and Barnabas were gone, he was about to fall on his sword. But Paul called out to him, and the jailer responded with: "What must I do to be saved?" He had been so convicted by the Holy Spirit, that he fell to his knees. He knew without a doubt that something had to change.

    "Not an "intellectualization" per se, but a realization."

    A realization through the work of the Holy Spirit?

    Thanks for your response.

    UNP
    Adam
     
    #22 Brother Adam, Dec 23, 2001
  3. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam New Member

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    "Originally posted by Gina:
    GETTIN' ON MY SOAPBOX
    I'm really having to ask if the argument is worth it."

    Sure it is- to an extent. Really this debate is more of a philosophical approach to salvation in my opinion, but it gets us all to think. The most important aspect to the debate is if salvation is something that we take part in to make happen, which, yes, is important to understand. We will never understand how God works, but there are somethings about salvation that we can understand.

    UNP
    Adam
     
    #23 Brother Adam, Dec 23, 2001
  4. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam New Member

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    #24 Brother Adam, Dec 23, 2001
  5. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam New Member

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    #25 Brother Adam, Dec 23, 2001
  6. Gina B

    Gina B Active Member

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    Ut oh. Dr. Bob, easy with that answer, I'm scared of it already! :eek:
    da Gina
     
    #26 Gina B, Dec 23, 2001
  7. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    I don't claim to have all the answers (although I do come across a little like a know-it-all at times. Like ALL the time [​IMG])

    God's elect will go to heaven and all the others will continue merrily on their way to hell, oblivious to salvation. Blinded by Satan, darkened by sin, dead and unable to do, want, wish, will, seek, come, accept, believe, follow, turn, open their heart -- well just add anything else to that list.

    Now, does God have some special plan for babies and mentally deficient? David found great peace at the time of the death of his firstborn son. He was certainly not talking about just "the grave" when he said that HE (David) would soon be joining his 10 day old son.

    The very first funeral I preached, when my wife was 9+ months pregnant, was for a family that had a baby born with massive difficulties and it died a few days later.

    Was that baby "elect"? That's up to God. Was he "saved"? No, not by any Bible definition that I could twist. But was he "safe" because Jesus has a special category for those unborn, stillborn or young dead? I found great consolation in this fact: even though I did not know exactly what happens, I DID KNOW the God would will do all things right.

    When I get the answer I'll be in heaven. But I'm sure I'll be shaking my head in amazement that most certainly that the Judge of all the Earth has "done right".
     
    #27 Dr. Bob, Dec 23, 2001
  8. Brother Adam

    Brother Adam New Member

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    "I don't claim to have all the answers (although I do come across a little like a know-it-all at times. Like ALL the time [​IMG])"

    That's okay. I'm one of those guys who doesn't mind argueing with the Ph.D.'s when I believe they are wrong. I will probably drive the Bible prof's at Moody nuts with all of my questions :D [​IMG] :eek: [​IMG]

    "God's elect will go to heaven and all the others will continue merrily on their way to hell, oblivious to salvation."

    So far we are in agreement [​IMG]

    "Was that baby "elect"? That's up to God. Was he "saved"? No, not by any Bible definition that I could twist."

    What is your definition of saved? I view a saved person as someone who has faith in Jesus Christ. So many people view "faith" as something we do. I see faith as something God gives us. Perhaps an infant cannot express thier faith at their age, or even comprahend it, but that does not stop God from working in their heart. After all- if they are elect, they are elect. [​IMG]

    "even though I did not know exactly what happens, I DID KNOW the God would will do all things right."

    Amen to that fact brother! It makes us happy we aren't in charge.

    UNP
    Adam
     
    #28 Brother Adam, Dec 24, 2001
  9. S. Baptist

    S. Baptist New Member

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    #29 S. Baptist, Dec 24, 2001
  10. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Probably more in agreement than we'd like to admit! :rolleyes:

    Reformed Baptists (like myself) tend to focus on the work of the Holy Spirit in "regenerating" the spiritually dead sinner so that he will be able -- remember, he's dead and incapable of faith or repentance -- to believe the Gospel and repent and trust Christ.

    Others tend to focus on the "believing" part first.

    As long as we agree that God has to somehow work in a man's spirit to "regenerate" him so he CAN believe, I think the debate is over "time".

    To me, regeneration IS giving faith/repentance to man, so it is instantanious. The Gospel is given, man responds in faith/repentance. Why? He has been "worked on" (regenerated) by the Holy Spirit.

    WE only see the outside - faith/repentance. We simply have to realize that an inside work had to be done for the outside to occur. And it may be at the same exact time!
     
    #30 Dr. Bob, Dec 25, 2001
  11. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    If intellectual salvation is so important, and we know the scriptures of those born of women, the greatest was Solomon but his intellect did not pass the first man Adam. Adam was the greatest intellect before his fall, when he plunged him and all his posterity into sin. Yet his intellect couldn't save him so when was he saved? Was he saved during his lifetime or at the cross?... Brother Glen
     
    #31 tyndale1946, Dec 25, 2001
  12. doodle

    doodle New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris Temple:
    Adam:

    I am a staunch 7-point Calvinist and affirm that salvation is all of the Lord...    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    This is a little off the subject, but, Chris, what is a "7" Point Calvinist?

    -------------------
    STRENGTH & HONOR
     
    #32 doodle, Dec 25, 2001
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