StraightAndNarrow
Active Member
S&N insists that we must deal with his arbitrary verse lists, which he insists are to unsaved people. But he doesn't exegete them or interpret them. Okay, I'll deal with this one.
Matt. 4:19 is to Peter and Andrew, but there is no indication in the text or context whether or not they were saved. I believe they were saved and this was their call to service.
Matt. 8:19 is to a scribe, but we find from the context that he was already a disciple, a believer, since the man in v. 22 is called “another disciple.”
Matt. 8:22 is to “another disciple,” so he was already a believer.
Matt. 9:9 is to Matthew, but it doesn’t say if he was saved yet or not.
Matt. 16:24 is to “His disciples,” so they were already believers.
Matt. 19:21 is to the rich young man. Jesus tells him to sell all he has, and then he will have treasure in Heaven. I dealt with this passage when it was mentioned by S&N earlier, and I don’t believe it proves Lordship Salvation at all. The significant thing here is that, according to the order of salvation given by S&N earlier, the man would have been saved if he had sold his possessions. Jesus told him to “Follow Me,” then, after he would have been saved.
Mark 2:14 and Luke 5:27 are parallel to Matt. 9:9.
Mark 8:34 and Luke 9:23 are parallel to Matt. 16:24.
Mark 10:21 and Luke 18:22 are parallel to Matt. 19:21.
Luke 8:57-59 are parallel to Matt. 8:19-22.
John 1:43 is to Phillip, but we don’t know from the context exactly when he got saved.
John 10:27 is about “My sheep,” which means believers.
John 12:26 has someone serving Jesus before following Him. I would say this means the follower is already saved.
John 13:36 is to Peter. Jesus is speaking of His own death, therefore this is about literally, physically following, not metaphorically.
John 21:19 is once again to Peter. If Peter wasn’t saved by then, it would be very strange.
Acts 12:8 is about literally, physically following, not metaphorically. And besides, it is about following an angel, not Jesus. This proves to me how careless S&N is being with the Scripture. He evidently didn’t even realize this is about following an angel out of prison, since he included it with verses about following Jesus.
At the end of his list, S&N tacked on Luke 9:61 and John 21:22, out of order. Luke 9:61 is a continuation of the parallel passage to Matt. 8, and is therefore redundant.
John 21:22 is a continuation of the words of Jesus to Peter from earlier in the chapter, and is therefore redundant.
SOOOOOOO, what is the record? S&N cannot prove exegetically that a single one of these passages is to lost people. Furthermore, Matt. 8:19 & 22, 16:24 (and the parallels in Mark and Luke), John 10:27, John 12:26 and at least the later passages about Peter are definitely to disciples, who are believers.
S&N did not prove his point with this casually thrown together list. On the contrary, he proved that Jesus often told those who were already disciples to follow Him!!
I agree that John 13:36 and Acts 12:8 were not good proof texts. Now, let's look at the others.
MA 4:19 describes Jesus' first encounter with Peter and Andrew. JoJ said "I believe they were saved and this was their call to service."
Actually, the same event is described in John 1:35-50 which sheds more light on the question.
Jhn 1:35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;
Jhn 1:36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the Lamb of God! Jhn 1:37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus.
Jhn 1:38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?
Jhn 1:39 He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.
Jhn 1:40 One of the two which heard John [speak], and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.
Jhn 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
Jhn 1:42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone. Jhn 1:43 The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip, and saith unto him, Follow me.
Jhn 1:44 Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter.
Jhn 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.
Jhn 1:46 And Nathanael said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see.
Jhn 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!
Jhn 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee. Jhn 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.
Jhn 1:50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.
The key verves are John 1:41 and 1:50
Jhn 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.
Jhn 1:50 Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these.
If the three disciples had first found the Messiah, I don't think it's accurate to assume that they had already been saved prior to this event. Christ expressed surprise that Nathanael believed because He had seen Nathanael under the fig tree.
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Mathew 8:19-22 is clarified by looking at the range of definitions for the Greek word "mathetes" which is translated as disciple here. (Strong's 3101).
1) a learner, pupil, disciple.
Therefore, both of these "disciples" could simply have been people who had heard about Jesus and had joined the multitudes who came to see Him and to learn more about Him. Certainly, these weren't disciples in the same sense that the twelve were.
MA 9:9 talks about Jesus' first meeting with Mathew. I believe that the same argument used previously for Andrew, Peter, Phillip, and Nathanael (John 1:41) holds true for Mathew as well. This was the first time he met Jesus. He wasn't saved yet.
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I really take issue with your interpretation of MA 16:24.
Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Christ is talking to His disciples but He is making a statement about "any [man]." This is perhaps the best description of Christ's requirement for salvation.
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As far as MA 19:21 is concerned it is true that the rich young ruler would have been saved if he had been willing to sell everything he had and give it to the poor. I don't agree that this says nothing about Lordship Salvation. In fact it's a very good proof text for it.
The ruler demonstrated that he was unwilling to give up his money (his master) to follow Christ. He was unwilling to make Christ his Lord because his riches were his lord. This is exactly what I'm talking about. We must give up our false master to accept the real one.
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My reply to your answers for the parallel passages is the same as my reply above to the original. In other words, you misinterpreted them in the same way as you misinterpreted the original ones.
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John 1:43 refers to Jesus' initial meeting with Phillip. My reply once again is that this is explained by John 1:35-50.
You replied that John 10:27 is about “My sheep,” which means believers.
My point exactly. Christians accept Jesus as Lord (Sheppard) and follow Him.
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For John 12:26 you said "John 12:26 has someone serving Jesus before following Him. I would say this means the follower is already saved."
Jhn 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will [my] Father honour.
I don't see that this passage says that serving Christ precedes following Him. In fact it says that serving Him requires that we follow Him to serve Him wherever He is.
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John 21:19 is once again to Peter. If Peter wasn’t saved by then, it would be very strange.
Of course, this verse is to Peter at a much later point in time. But even then, Christ is testing Peter. Look at John 21:17.
Jhn 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
Jesus says that if Peter loves Him he must do something, "Feed My sheep." The importance of loving Christ is stressed in John Chapter 14.
Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Jhn 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. Jhn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Jhn 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. Jhn 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
Note verse 21 says that those who keep Christ’s commandments loves Him and is loved by the Father and Christ. This shows the requirement for an abiding close relationship (love) between us and Christ. If we do that we will know on that day (Judgment) that we are in Christ (saved).
