Israels Blindness & Isaiah ch 6

It looks as if God intentionally blinds Israel........

Isa 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Isa 6:11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
Isa 6:12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Luke 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
Luke 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
Luke 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

So this implies that all those Jews, from the time of Isaiah until the present, who have been born outside of the grace of God, outside of the elective decree, were born with a reprobative curse on their lives..........

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

[ November 22, 2002, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: Scott_Bushey ]

Scott, you are normally so thorough...I'm disappointed with you. You left out some important Scripture passages in this discussion.

MATTHEW
Jesus quotes the Is. 6 passage in Matthew 13:14-15. He does this right after telling His disciples, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given" (13:11).

MARK
Jesus tells the disciples in Mark 4:11-12, "To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables, so that 'Seeing they may see and not perceive, and hearing they may hear and not understand; lest they should turn, and their sins be forgiven them.'" He is quoting Is. 6.

LUKE
The same scene repeats itself in Luke's Gospel.

ACTS
The Book of Acts ends with St. Paul quoting Isaiah 6:9-10 (Acts 28:25-27). Paul believes that the prophechy of Isaiah is fulfilled before his very eyes, and as a result he declares, "Therefore let it be known to you that the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will hear it!" (28:28)

Since this is found in three of the four Gospels, and since it is also found in Acts, is it an important issue?

Rev. G

[ November 22, 2002, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: Rev. G ]

Rev,
I was on the way out to dinner........I whipped this one up on the run.

Thanks for getting my back brother!

Excuses, excuses.

Actually, I figured you didn't put them in there because they were all quoting Isaiah 6, which you had ALREADY listed. Just thought I'd point out how it is quoted in the Gospels and Acts.

Rev. G

Why are there no "takers" for this discussion?

I'll be a taker


First question:

It looks as if God intentionally blinds Israel........

Click to expand...

So this implies that all those Jews, from the time of Isaiah until the present, who have been born outside of the grace of God, outside of the elective decree, were born with a reprobative curse on their lives..........

Click to expand...

What about us gentiles seeing this is all written to the Jews?

Second question:

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Click to expand...

What about this "Blindness in part"?
Were all Israel "blinded"?

My next 4 points:

1.Israel was God's chosen people.

Deuteronomy 7:6-8 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

2. Just because they were chosen didn't mean they all were God's children(in other words it didn't insure that they would be born again into God's family)

Romans 9:3-8 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

3. They rejected Christ(grace)and held to the law(works)

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Mark 7:6-9 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Romans 9:30-33 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

4. Israel is still God's chosen people.

Romans 11:28-29 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Isaiah 6:9-13 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate, And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land. But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.

I bring to mind the holy seed.

Romans 9:6-8 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Galatians 3:16-29 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Some Jews have been saved since the days of Isaiah 6. The promises were given through Christ not the law. The law was given to the Jews.The Jews could not keep the law.

The whole point is that the works of the law would never save anyone, for all have been concluded to be under sin(breakers of the law)(see Romans 2:1 "doest the same things" not might do, possibly do, could do, but doest). The law was given that we might know we were sinners and needed a Savior. Those that assumed they were capable of keeping the law were "blinded" because they were not honest in light of the truth. If the pharisees would have fessed up to the fact they really were blind(sinners) they could have had that problem corrected.

John 9:39-41 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also? Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see(lie); therefore your sin remaineth.

Mark 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Acts 7:51-53 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it.

1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Trying to deal with this entire subject is quite time and space consuming. I am trying to keep it divided up into sections.

Luke 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
Luke 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
Luke 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

In basic computer programming there are statements called if-then statements:

When the if statement is true the then statement MUST be true. It is also in the scriptures,for example:
2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Now in this respect let's examine Luke 19:42

Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace![Then?] but now they are hid from thine eyes.

James 1:22-25 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

This scripture relates a man that is a hearer and not a doer of the word to a man looking into a mirror (and actually seeing himself as he is) and then if he doesn't get washed and turns away, he forgets what manner of man he was.

In Luke 19 Jesus is speaking of the day of visitation. The day when God seeks out the sinner with the intents of saving them is the day of visitation. No man seeks God(Ps 14,Ps53,Rom 3:10-18,Jer 17:9) God seeks man; and when He does it could be called the day of visitation.

Luke 19:9-10 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham. For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

1 Peter 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

This would explain Hebrews 6 and John 1:9

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

The problem for you is the fact that God has visited every man yet not all received Him.

but now they are hid from thine eyes.

never responded to the call, rejected the Savior, turned away, fell back, turned again to their vomit, etc. call it what you will these folks rejected God, and when they did they lost their ONLY chance of ever having their sins washed away.

Hebrews 10:26-29 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

I will be back to finish my reply to Romans

JMF asks:
What about us gentiles seeing this is all written to the Jews?

Scott answers:
The blindness was beset upon Israel alone. The gentiles (generally) were not within the scope @ the time. Gods chosen people were Israel. Funny how the non-Calvinist admits to this fact, that God had chosen to Himself a certain peoples.

JMF asks:
What about this "Blindness in part"?
Were all Israel "blinded"?

Scott writes:
Not all of Israel........
Isa 6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Isa 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
Isa 6:11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
Isa 6:12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.
Isa 6:13 But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof .

Isa 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel , and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
Isa 10:21 The remnant shall return , even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.

JMF writes:
2. Just because they were chosen didn't mean they all were God's children(in other words it didn't insure that they would be born again into God's family)

Scott Responds:
The elect line has always been just that, "the elect line". But the blindness effected everyone, excluding the remnant. This remnant is sometimes referred to as a "tithe" remenant. Since Israel had been (at the least) faithful w/ their tithes and offerings, God allows for the tithe remnant. One might be able to conclude, based upon the definition of "tithe" that a 10% remant was allowed to the blindness.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Isa 6:13 But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof .

JMF writes:
3. They rejected Christ(grace)and held to the law(works)

Scott states:
I dont know what this has to do with anything...........You then quote John 1:11, 1:17
Matthew, Romans........At this point JMF, you're speculating, derailing. Keep in mind, these passages are a cause of the blindness (The blindness, which happened 1000 yrs prior to these passages you quote). The blindness is not Gods response to these passages.

JMF writes:
4. Israel is still God's chosen people.

Scott responds:
Yes. The question is: As Isaiah asked, "How long Lord.....will you blind the 90%?"

JMF, in your next post, you mention, The seed.

Scott responds:
You are right, there is a remnant seed. Again, the question is: "How long?"

JMF then writes:
Some Jews have been saved since the days of Isaiah 6. The promises were given through Christ not the law. The law was given to the Jews.The Jews could not keep the law.

Scott replies:
Yes, Jews have been saved........Ala the remnant 10% branch.

JMF then quotes:
Acts 7:51-53 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Scott asks:
Their hearts were "uncircumcised?"
~Who is the circumciser of hearts?

Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Ezek 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Ezek 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Ezek 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Ezek 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Ezek 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

JMF writes in regrards to 2 Chr 7:14.......

In basic computer programming there are statements called if-then statements:

When the if statement is true the then statement MUST be true. It is also in the scriptures,for example:
2 Chronicles 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Scott states:
You are doing exactly what you've been taught to do. This passage has been taken out of context and used as a straw man. I will show you.......

Notice the passages that lead into verse 14....
I will use the literal Hebrew interpretation.

2 Chr 7:1-16
If *I* shut up the heavens and there is no rain and if *I* command the locust to consume the land and if *I* send pestilence among my people, and my people whom my name is called, *SHALL BE HUMBLED* and they shall pray and shall seek my face, and shall turn back from their evil ways, then I will surely hear from heaven and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Scott adds:
Do you see the difference in these passages. The way it is taught, your presentation looks as if the *humbling* is optional. -IF- my people......
God demands their humility! He crunches them like the bugs they are......they are forcefully humbled. No food, no rain, famine and pestilence is theirs. The Lord God forces them to their knees. It will be like this in the end days!

Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

JMF writes:
This would explain Hebrews 6 and John 1:9

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

The problem for you is the fact that God has visited every man yet not all received Him.

Scott adds:
You have reversed the cause and effect. Please start in Isaiah. With this premise move toward your premise and conclussion.

One cannot deny the obvious. God blinded His people. Flat out! So, all those being born into this blindness and perishing during this cursed time, were essentially born "reprobate".

[ November 24, 2002, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: Scott_Bushey ]

A group in general can be blinded, and individuals still have the choice to either go along with the group or repent. Just look at how this modern society has been portrayed as "blinded" and coming under God's judgment (including by Calvinist preachers). Does that mean none of us can repent? Western society is much like the Israel of Bible times, taking pride in a heritage of the religion of God. But like in the Bible, man had corrupted it, and people rebelled, and now people have made up their own minds about God and the way to live, and want to hear nothing about the truth of the Bible, as morality plunges ever further and further. So we are truly "hardened" and "blinded" and it can once again be said that the truth is not "given" people, but this is not from God witholding any chance or ability to believe to each individual, (based on a decree from "before they were born") but just the general state of the society at large, and people do have a choice to follow it or turn to God. So even if some are "elected" out of this, it must be the group in general that is hardened. (God can specially call some-- no, I'm not pushing for "equal chance", but that still does not mean the rest have no chance to be grafted into that "10%. Judgment of sin seems to lose it's meaning if people hadn't spurned an offer of salvation they really could have accepted, and are simply characters playing a script where it only appears that they are punished for "willful sin" of their "free choice", but they were purely helpless) Remember, individuals are already sinners and wouldn't need to be "hardened" or "blinded" in order to be condemned. Groups can hold a lot of truth and righteousness (even if every member doesn't obey it), or God can allow them to be completely darkened. Of course, God's "purpose" in blinding and hardening Israel is to show that having a nation under His Law did not make people righteous. This was for preparing the way for the Gospel of Christ, not reprobating individuals to Hell (which is not even the point).
Not realizing that "hardening" and "blinding" had different degrees (God hardens the group for an earthly purpose; or individuals harden themselves; or God hardens individuals further after they harden themselves), is what causes this assumption of unconditional, eternal reprobation whenever passages like this are encountered. (Yet the same people turn around and try to deny "double predestination"!)

Good exegesis, JMF!

[ November 24, 2002, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: Eric B ]

Romans 9:14-24 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

God has foreordained that all who will call on Him will have mercy.

God has foreordained that all who will resist and reject Him will be hardened.

This is proof that He is God of both saved and lost; for why would it be written that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord except that Jesus did in fact own the sinner.

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Revelation 20:12-15 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Matthew 25:14-15 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods. And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

Matthew 25:24-26 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed: And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:

Matthew 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

God chose all of Israel, but only those who responded to the call entered into the promises.

Romans 9:6-8 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Exodus 9:16 And in very deed for this cause have I[God] raised thee[Pharoah] up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

When a wicked man rejects God, he only prooves God's goodness and greatness; and also that God is fair, just, and longsuffering.

Romans 9:22-24 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

God gave Pharoah ample time to repent. "endured with much longsuffering"

So we see that those who come to Christ will have mercy
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

And we see that all those who reject Christ will be hardened.This tells us that God is Lord of both saved and lost; and is just and fair and equal and kind.

Originally posted by JMF:
and is...fair and equal...

Click to expand...

I'm thankful that God is gracious and merciful.

Ken

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JMF:
and is...fair and equal...

Click to expand...

I'm thankful that God is gracious and merciful.

Ken</font>[/QUOTE]God can be fair and equal AND gracious and merciful. One set of terms need not be exclusive from the other.

SEC

The Bible states that God is gracious and merciful. Where does the Bible state that God is fair and equal?

Ken

Great thread! Thanks. I now have a link to post every time the tired old argument about God's chosen people comes up.

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
The Bible states that God is gracious and merciful. Where does the Bible state that God is fair and equal?

Ken

Click to expand...

Hi, Ken Hamilton!

Fair:

Matt.5
[45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

...and equal:

Gal.3
[28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Originally posted by SheEagle911:
Matt.5
[45] That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Click to expand...

That is the doctrine of common grace, not fairness as the post I responded to used the term.

Gal.3
[28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Click to expand...

That is what was meant by equal in the post I responded to. This verse is telling us that God's elect are now from all people groups, regardless of race or socioenconmic or gender status.

[ November 24, 2002, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]