Bible teaches total abstinence from alcoholic beverages

I agree. I'm not sure I understand the concept of fractions of drunkenness.

I think the big question here is how do you define "drunk" and how do know when you are?

Is it when you look in the bathroom mirror and try to see if anyone can tell you're drunk?

When your lips start to get numb?

When you start yelling at the band "Hey, you stink! Play some Buffett!"

When you think, "Hey, that Jan Crouch is pretty hot."

When, exactly are you drunk?

At 6'4" and 240 lbs (curse you, Tastycake!), I'm probably one of the bigger guys here on BB and so I probably metabolizes much more slowly than some others here.

If a relatively small person only takes a couple of drinks to be slightly buzzed, assuming that's a sin, is it reasonable for someone my size who takes considerably more to get drunk to be held to the same standard?

***Just so the anti's know, I've imposed a voluntary moratorium on alcohol, so this is purely hypothetical.***

Reach out your hand if your cup be empty. If your cup be full, may it be again. Let it be know, there is a Fountain that was not made by the hand of man - Robert Hunter

Mike

[ October 21, 2002, 09:34 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

Help, I'm sick to my stomach, can I have some wine please. Give me a break, a Christian drinking wine is like a smack in the face to Jesus. Sounds to me someone needs to get into the Word of God and let the Holy Spirit convict them. Just blowing some steam.

When Jesus turn the water to wine in Cana, he did it after the people had emptied the pots, therefore I believe that they were already drunk with the alcoholic wine(John 2:9  When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew...) the ruler was already drunk and knew none the wiser(but the servants did now didn't they). Sounds to me its like drinking a 6-pack of bud and then switching to o'douls. Taste great, less filling.

 

You are reading into the Scripture there way too much! The Bible says that it was the best...we do not know the host's state of sobriety. He may not have even been drinking. the fact is WE DONT KNOW. I don't think its our place to do that to the Bible...i think its wrong to manipulate scripture like John 2 in order for it to fit into theories and/or personal convictions and beliefs.

 

One note:
The "Governor of the Feast" was the head servant - the one that kept things running smoothly. Very doubtful he was drunk or even drinking.

 

So then, who is Jesus' drinking wine a smack in the face to?

I agree. We'll wait here 'til you're done.

How do you know that the Holy Spirit would give us the same conviction as He has you?

A careful readong of the text would seem to say just the opposite to me.

Mike

There is a Fountain that was not made by the hands of man. - Robert Hunter

 

...Give me a break, a Christian drinking wine is like a smack in the face to Jesus.

What about beer? If you take the bible literally, then the Bible bans two things: wine, and drunkeness. It does not ban alcohol per se.

Since I know I can drink one 12oz glass of beer per hour without feeling any effects, and without achieving a BAC even close to the legal limit, then please tell me where the sin is, using biblical reference.

 

John I am sure the Lord is very impressed with your drinking prowess, I am thankful that it has been so long since I drank a beer that I can't remember my tolerance level. Just curious, how many hours in a row have you tested this?
Murph

 

What other excuses do we have to drink? I believe the characterists of Jesus shows us that he did not drink alcohol. Why would he, why would any of us. It's stupid, it has no positive affect on our lifes so therefore, why do it. Sounds to me that somebody does not like a final authority.

P.S. For those of you that do drink, have you done it in church, witnessing, in front of your kid(s), maybe give the kid a drink. If not, why not, if it's okay.

 

Tastes good.
Pleasant atmosphere.
To enjoy the company of your friends.

Other than the time at Cana, the Last Supper, and the events in Revelation, I agree with you.

Of course, the Bible tells us very little about Jesus' life so if he drank wine at these occasions, why would it not make sense that He drank wine at others?

He picked up somewhat of a reputation for being a "wine-biber", so someone must have seen Him drink wine.

He liked wine.
It was the social custom of the day.
It was part of Jewish observances.

See the following.

We do things everyday that have no apparent positive effect. That doesn't mean they're sinful or even necessarily bad.

Sounds to me like somebody hasn't demonstrated that any final authority condemns or even looks down on drinking in moderation.

No, we don't have many keg parties in church but I have gone to Catholic carnivals and such that had beer gardens. I have gone to places with the pastor and one of the deacons too watch a game and had a couple beers. Does that count?

Yes. I've played in bars for years where people often want to buy me a beer on my break (they don't know that the bartender gives them to us on the house, anyway) and have have several wonderful opportunities to
"witness".

No kids.

Not everything that's "OK" for adults is OK for kids.

It must be a lot of fun to grow up in your house.

My dad would let me have a sip of his beer once in a while when I was a kid but I would never do that for two reasons.

One is that it's illegal and with the increasing nannystate, God only knows what they would do to you.

Two is that a child's body is still growing and developing. To offer him alcohol could be harmful, although in small amounts, I doubt it.

In some cultures, it's considered perfectly normal for a child to have a taste of alcohol here and there and these cultures generally tend to have lower incidences of alcoholism.

[ October 23, 2002, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: Smoke_Eater ]

 

Smoke_eater, :

 

Just curious, how many hours in a row have you tested this?

I've never gotten intoxicated. I rarely consume alcohol.

 

HomeBound said:

What other excuses do we have to drink?

Since the Bible commends wine when used properly, those who drink moderately need no excuse.

For my part I drink because I enjoy the refreshment wine and beer provide, as well as the way they complement a meal. Simple pleasures do not need to be excused.

It's stupid, it has no positive affect on our lifes so therefore, why do it.

On the contrary, Psalm 104:15 says that wine makes the heart glad. That seems to be a positive effect.

Furthermore, that same psalm says that wine is a gift from God. If you wish not to partake in one of God's blessings, that is your prerogative, but you have no leave to call "stupid" what God calls a blessing.

For those of you that do drink, have you done it in church, witnessing, in front of your kid(s), maybe give the kid a drink. If not, why not, if it's okay.

What is the purpose of this question? You seem to assume those of us who believe God permits the moderate use of alcohol have cast off all restraint.

Just because something is lawful does not make it the wisest course of action in every circumstance.

[ October 23, 2002, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: Ransom ]

 

This is something I found while studing about wine. Take it for what it is worth.

What Saith the Scriptures?

While I find some who are quick to quote, "use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities" (1 Timothy 5:23) to justify their drinking of alcohol, but listed below are 75 scripture references that show why no Christian ought to indulge in the drinking of alcoholic beverages.
1. Gen. 9:20 - 26. The first drunkenness and the attendant immoral behaviour.
2. Gen. 19:30 - 38. Drinking results in Lot's defilement of his own daughters.
3. Gen. 27:25. Isaac was drinking when he mistakenly blessed Jacob.
4. Lev. 10:9. An express command not to drink.
5. Num. 6:3. The vow of the Nazarite.
6.Deut. 21:20. Drinking leads to stubbornness, rebellion, and gluttony and brings dishonour to parents.
7. Deut. 29:2 - 6. Abstinence assures a closer walk with God.
8. Judg. 13:4,7,14. Samson's mother, an example of all womanhood, was commanded not to drink.
Was alcohol recognized even then as a protoplasmic poison, injuring posterity?
9. 1 Sam. 1:14,15. Hannah, an example of honoured motherhood, refrained from drinking wine.
10. 1 Sam. 25:32 - 38. Nabal, a rich but churlish man who opposed David, died after a drunken spree. He had already lost his wife's respect.
11. 2 Sam.11:13. By having Uriah plied with strong drink, David attempted to cover his own sin.
12. 2 Sam. 13:28,29. Amnon, in a drunken brawl, was murdered by his brother, Absalom.
13. 1 Kings 16:8 -10. While a king was "drinking himself drunk" in his own home, one of his captains conspired against him and slew him.
14. 1 Kings 20:12 - 21. Drink and war. While Ben - hadad and thirty - two other kings were drinking in their pavilions, a small band of Israel's men fell upon the Syrians and put them to flight.
15. Esther 1:5 - 22. Drink wrecks homes and separates man and wife. At a week's feast of food and wine, King Ahasuerus drunkenly tried to subject his queen to the beastly gaze of inebriated nobles, thereby causing separation of the royal husband and wife.
16. Job 1:18,19. The children of Job were feasting and drinking when blown away in a cyclone.
17. Pr. 4:17. Violence results from drinking.
18. Pr. 20:1. No wise man will indulge.
19. Pr. 21:17. He that loveth wine is not rich.
20. Pr. 23:21. Drinking leads to poverty.
21. Pr. 23:29,30. Strong drink produces sorrow, contentions, wounds without cause, babblings, redness of eyes.
22. Pr. 23:31. Do not be tempted by intoxicants.
23. Pr. 23:32. God's Word warns that liquor eventually harms all who drink.
24. Pr. 23:33. It fills men's minds with adulterous and impure thoughts.
25. Pr. 23:33. It produces wilfulness and prevents reformation.
26. Pr. 23:34. It brings on insecurity.
27. Pr. 23:35. Insensibility follows drinking, rendering a man as a clod.
28. Pr.23:35. Habit forming. One drink calls for another.
29. Pr. 31:4,5. Kings and all other rulers or officials with the weight of human lives in their control should not indulge.
30. Pr. 31:6,7. The only sanction for the use of strong drink was as a medicine or anaesthetic for those
about to die. We now know better medicines and anaesthetics than whisky, wine or beer.
31. Eccl. 2:3; 12:8. The writer of Ecclesiastes tried strong drink, but in the end was forced to admit that it too is
vanity.
32. Eccl. 10:17. Blessings are promised to the temperate and abstaining nation.
33. Isa. 5:11,12. Woe to drunkards.
34. Isa. 5:22. More woes to them who drink.
35. Isa. 22:13. Drinking and carnality go together. Leaves men hopeless.
36. Isa. 24:9. Drink is bitter to them that drink it.
37. Isa. 28:1. Woe to the drunkards of Ephraim.
38. Isa. 28:3. The pride of drunkards will be trodden down.
39. Isa. 28:7. Prophets and priests erred through drink.
40. Isa. 28:7. Those who drink are set aside as useless.
41. Isa. 28:7. Prophets and priests finally swallowed up by drink.
42. Isa. 28:7. Drinking brings on spiritual blindness.
43. Isa. 56:9 - 12. Rebuke to drinking church members, His watchmen.
44. Jer. 35:5,6,8,14. Total abstinence of the Rechabites cited as an example of obedience on the part of God's people.
45. Ezek. 44:21. Priests are not to drink wine.
46. Dan. 1:5,8,16; 10:3. God honoured Daniel because he abstained from the king's wine. Daniel, the man, was true to the home training he had received as a boy.
47. Dan. 5:1. Belshazzar exhibited as an example of a leader who drank and taught his people to drink.
48. Dan. 5:2, 23. A nation whose women drink.
49. Dan. 5:5 - 9, 25 - 28. Ruin and downfall for nations whose rulers and leaders cause them to drink.
50. Dan. 5:3. Belshazzar's sacrilege in using sacred temple vessels for liquor.
51. Hos. 3:1. Part of degradation of Hosea's wife induced by drink.
52. Hos. 4:11. Strong drink and immorality go hand in hand.
53. Hos. 7:5. King and people reproved because of drinking.
54. Joel 1:5. Drunkards to awake from their drinking.
55. Joel 3:3. Young virtue sold for the price of drink.
56. Amos 2:8. Wine of the condemned.
57. Amos 2:12. Pollution of the innocent.
58. Amos 4:1. Dissolute women, oppressors of the poor, call for their liquor.
59. Amos 6:6. Drinkers are not concerned about God nor the welfare of others.
60. Nah. 1:10. Drunkards to be destroyed.
61. Hab. 2:5. Arrogance inflamed by drink.
62. Hab. 2:15. Wrong to give one's neighbour drink. Social drinking.
63. Hab. 2:16. Drink leads to shame and humiliation.
64. Matt. 24:48 - 51. Drunkards warned about the return of Christ and His judgment.
65. Luke 1:15. Greatness of John the Baptist linked with his total abstinence.
66. Luke 12:45. Christ warns against being enmeshed in drink evils.
67. Luke 21:34. Warning against drunkenness and the acres of this life which follow, keeping one occupied to the exclusion of the Spirit.
68. Rom. 13:13. All are admonished to walk honestly, not in rioting and drunkenness. It is not honest to be less than men, created in the image of God.
69. Rom. 14:21. Drinking causes a brother to stumble. Importance of example.
70. 1 Cor. 6:10. No drunkard shall inherit the kingdom of God.
71. 1 Cor. 11:25. The Lord's Supper no place for wine. Word "wine" not even used. Instead all accounts say "the cup" or "fruit of the vine".
72. Gal. 5:21. Revellers in drunkenness shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
73. Eph. 5:18. Direct command that exhilaration shall be of the Spirit and not by wine.
74. 1 Thess. 5:7. Sobriety enjoined upon the Thessalonians. Children of light must not be overcome by darkness.
75. 1 Tim. 3:3 - 12. Church officers must not drink; neither should their families.

 

P. S. Wine is to grapejuice as soda is to pepsi, coke, 7up, sprite and so forth.

 

I notice two things about your list:

</font>

1. The majority of the verses cited deal with the consequences of drunkenness, not merely drinking. (I also note that at least a few of them misattribute negative consequences to drinking when it is not necessarily the case, e.g. Noah and Isaac.)</font>
2. The remainder seem to deal with situational issues rather than universal principles, e.g. the priests and Nazarites.</font>
3. It utterly ignores the many passages in the Bible which speak positively of wine.</font>

Care to address these discrepancies?

[ October 23, 2002, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Ransom ]

 

What, Isaac just became stupid and blessed the wrong person. I think alcohol was the factor here.

I think the passages you are talking about which are positive, is most likely grapejuice that was used.

I will end with this. If drinking is okay, then go for it. Me, I stopped that stuff when I came back to the Lord. By experience, alcohol does nothing but start trouble.

Don't you think that if alcohol was okay to drink in the Bible, someone by now would have started a "Holy Bar," just for Christians to socialize with each other and with only 1 rule, only 1 drink per customer, except on Sunday(closed).

 

The one about Isaac really cracks me up. You think Isaac gave his blessing to Jacob because he was drunk? Not because he was old and blind? Or because God said it would happen?

As stated, yor verses have nothing to do with an occasional drink - but you keep throwing those drunkeness scriptures at us. I don't know who you're arguing with because I still haven't seen one single advocate of drunkeness.

 

Nope. It was wine.

If that's your conviction, then I think you're to be commended.

In excess or if you're a troublemaker to begin with, yes, but I don't understand how drinking in moderation "does nothing but start trouble".

Eating is OK, but there aren't any "holy restaurants". You don't see any "holy shoe stores" or "holy garges", but these things are (presumably) permitted by scripture.

Any bar that was opened to serve such a small niche wouldn't last very long, would it? Unless it was part of a private club.

The A.O.H. and the K. of C. are Christian organizations that often have beer at their functions and, in the case of the A.O.H., have bars in their clubshouses.

Who was that list of yours for? As far as I can tell, we've all condemned excesive drinking and some of us have even listed those same scripture verses.

Mike