Virgin born

C.S. Murphy · Aug 14, 2002

Please help me out I am just a simple minded Conservative. I always took the Bible's word for it and thought that Jesus was Virgin born. Now I hear that this isn't true so someone please explain his birth since the gospel account is a lie.
Murphy

Don · Aug 14, 2002

I don't believe anyone should answer this until Mr. (or Ms.?) Murphy gives a little more background. Like, who's saying this? What "proves" it? Why go to the trouble of saying that the gospel account is a lie?

I'm not familiar with C.S.' posts (only 34 of them total), but this sounds suspiciously like someone's trying to stir up trouble instead of debate/discuss something....

Baptist Believer · Aug 14, 2002

Don · Aug 14, 2002

Then perhaps I should simply ask for a little background....

Justified · Aug 14, 2002

Originally posted by Don:
Then perhaps I should simply ask for a little background....

I agree. With the controversy on this board and with the influx of liberals moving in, it is nice to know where someone stands.

I don't care what this person posted before, this question sounds and looks like a setup for a hostile playground!

Baptist Believer · Aug 14, 2002

Originally posted by Justified:
[QBWith the controversy on this board and with the influx of liberals moving in, it is nice to know where someone stands.[/QB]

"influx of liberals"? You make it sound like a hoard. I've only met a few here. There does seem to be a number of moderates posting though.

Justified · Aug 14, 2002

BBeliever,

Anything to the left would be liberal!

HankD · Aug 14, 2002

Here is my answer...

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel..

Luke 1: 26 And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,
27 To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.
28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.
30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name
JESUS.
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Matthew 1: 22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name
Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

There is nothing else to say.

HankD

C.S. Murphy · Aug 14, 2002

Thanks Hank atleast one person here knows the correct answer.

Don if you want background that is fine I didn't fill in all the blanks in the bio but I thought my saying conservative in the post would be sufficent. I don't intend to start a fight but You will note that I put down my occupation as Pastor and I call myself a conservative so do you think those two would likely add up to me being a woman. So my gender is male.

Now to baptist believer, thanks for jumping threads to instruct everyone that I am a bad egg, keep up the good work.

The reason for the post is because I could not get an answer to the question on the other thread so I thought I might need to ask it on a new post. Here was the question If a person believes that Jesus was not Virgin born how do they propose that He got here?

Now if anyone wants to think that this is an attempt to start a fight I am sorry. Unlike it was mentioned above I don't feel I have been slamming. Now I will say that if a person goes on the offensive sometimes I will join them. please Pray for me.

Murphy

C.S. Murphy · Aug 14, 2002

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
He has already participated in a discussion where the issue of the virgin birth was discussed and certain people were falsely accused of not affirming it because they did not believe holding the doctrine was necessary for someone to be saved.

He doesn't sound like a troll. (I think this group is too paranoid about trolls.)[/QB]

BB I went back and read through all ten pages of the thread, Which O/T events were real. And I found that I questioned the virgin birth question because of the fact that Joshua said it was questionable on page 6 and David Cooke said that maybe Mary had been raped onpage 8. That is what led to my question of if not Virgin how. Joshua never replied although his wife said that she did believe in the virgin birth but didn't feel it necessary. I don't think anyone else answered the question so I feel no harm in seeking this answer. I don't care what you consider yourself conservative, liberal whatever I simply want someone who does'nt believe that it happened according to scripture to explain how it did happen.
Murphy

David Cooke Jr · Aug 14, 2002

I don't know of anyone on the board who holds the view that Mary was not a virgin when Jesus was conceived. Some of us have stated that its not necessary to our personal theology that Mary was a virgin when she conceived, and that it would not affect our belief in Jesus as the Christ and the risen Son of God.
I do know that some "liberals" believe that early followers of Jesus tried to bolster their honestly held belief in the diety of Christ by adding the virgin birth accounts in Matthew and Luke, including the Bethlehem and Egypt parts so people would more readily believe Jesus was the Christ. Part of the arguement for that belief is that Isaiah originally said "young maiden", not "virgin" in his prediction but the texts that jews in Jesus' day used said "virgin", so there was no need for Mary to be a virgin but the people of Jesus' day thought so, so they "made" Mary a virgin in the later gospel accounts. Many of these "non-virgin" theorists hold that Joseph was the father, but some say there wasn't even a a Joseph.
Although this (non-virgin) theory is logical enough, its just a theory. Maybe they are right, maybe they are not. I believe Mary was a virgin b/c any "young maiden" of the day was a virgin or she faced stiff rebuke (like a stoning). And the word for "young maiden" sometimes could be used for virgin, or so I am told. Additionally, the Luke and Matthew accounts are actually two different stories that corroborate each other, which in my mind gives them more reliability.
You know, Mary could have been sexually active but not gotten pregnant until she conceived Jesus without an earthly father. But to me, the weight of the evidence points to the traditional virgin birth view. No one has ever lived a life like Jesus. He was special. It only makes sense that he was created "specially".

Baptist Believer · Aug 14, 2002

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:
Now to baptist believer, thanks for jumping threads to instruct everyone that I am a bad egg, keep up the good work.

Actually, I was affirming that you were not likely to be a troll since you don't hold the positions they people here expect them to hold.

While it sort of looks like a back-handed way of doing it, there wasn't much of a better way to explain it because SheEagle911 has insinuated that I have been a troll on numerous occasions. If I endorsed you, she would have likely been suspicious since she questioned my identity for supporting others.

I'm sorry if you were offended, but it was the best way to establish your credibility quickly.

Baptist Believer · Aug 14, 2002

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:
I don't think anyone else answered the question so I feel no harm in seeking this answer. I don't care what you consider yourself conservative, liberal whatever I simply want someone who does'nt believe that it happened according to scripture to explain how it did happen.

It looks like I may have unintentionally grouped you with those who have made false accusations. I did not specifically say you have made false accusations (that was intentional) but I can see by what I wrote how someone could come to that conclusion. I am sorry for any damage I may have caused. I simply wanted people to reference the thread where you had participated on the "side" of those who supported the doctrine of the virgin birth.

Don · Aug 14, 2002

Murph, if my post upset you, then I ask you to take a minute to calm down, and go back and read your original message from the point of view of "I don't have a clue who this person is."

Yes, normally I look at a person's profile to determine a few things about them; however, when I initially responded to you, I was getting ready for work, and didn't take the time to do that this time.

As for Hank being "the only one with the correct answer"--well, he ain't.

I, too, have seen the myriad "theories" on the supposed birth of Christ. Most of them are put out by atheists and other-religion types who simply wish to put Christ down as no different than Mohammed or Buddha.

Me personally, I find it hard to believe you can call yourself a Christian, much less a Baptist, and even consider questioning the virgin birth.

Rev. Joshua · Aug 14, 2002

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:

Joshua never replied although his wife said that she did believe in the virgin birth but didn't feel it necessary.

Click to expand...

CS, if you'll look at the post more carefully (and the subsequent one) you'll see that I was posting without realizing that my wife was still signed in on our computer. I doubt she has much opinion on the virgin birth either way.

I believe it because the Church has traditionally believed it, but I think there are several compelling arguments for it being a later addition to the Christian tradition. Since I don't subscribe to the Augustinian understanding of the tradition of the seminal transmission of sin, I don't believe Jesus would have had to have been born of a virgin for God to have made Him fully human and fully divine. I certainly don't think accepting the virgin birth is a prerequisite to salvation.

Joshua

C.S. Murphy · Aug 14, 2002

Originally posted by David Cooke, Jr.:
I don't know of anyone on the board who holds the view that Mary was not a virgin when Jesus was conceived. I believe Mary was a virgin b/c any "young maiden" of the day was a virgin or she faced stiff rebuke (like a stoning). Mary could have been sexually active but not gotten pregnant until she conceived Jesus without an earthly father. But to me, the weight of the evidence points to the traditional virgin birth view. No one has ever lived a life like Jesus. He was special. It only makes sense that he was created "specially".

David I appreciate your reply but please clear up something for me. Twice above you list your belief in the virgin birth but at the end you say "You know maybe she was sexually active before" I'm not being cute but I must not understand what you are trying to say.

In reference to everyone who has posted kind posts above, thanks but hey I'm not upset. I appreciate what everybody says, I learn alot. Joshua I apologize for thinking you didn't reply, I saw the post about oops my wife was on line but I didn't understand what you meant.
Murph

David Cooke Jr · Aug 14, 2002

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by David Cooke, Jr.:
I don't know of anyone on the board who holds the view that Mary was not a virgin when Jesus was conceived. I believe Mary was a virgin b/c any "young maiden" of the day was a virgin or she faced stiff rebuke (like a stoning). Mary could have been sexually active but not gotten pregnant until she conceived Jesus without an earthly father. But to me, the weight of the evidence points to the traditional virgin birth view. No one has ever lived a life like Jesus. He was special. It only makes sense that he was created "specially".

David I appreciate your reply but please clear up something for me. Twice above you list your belief in the virgin birth but at the end you say "You know maybe she was sexually active before" I'm not being cute but I must not understand what you are trying to say.

In reference to everyone who has posted kind posts above, thanks but hey I'm not upset. I appreciate what everybody says, I learn alot. Joshua I apologize for thinking you didn't reply, I saw the post about oops my wife was on line but I didn't understand what you meant.
Murph</font>[/QUOTE]The possibility exists that my belief is incorrect, but my belief is that Mary was a virgin when she gave birth to Jesus. I am merely stating alternate possibilities that nevertheless run counter to my personal belief that I explained earlier.

post-it · Aug 15, 2002

Did someone say Liberal?

I swear, I heard the word Left!

Ok, I don't believe most of the Catholic (starting with Peter) created dogma and BS they made up to control and convince the ignorant.

The Virgin myth was certainly not started with Christ, it was a traditional lie for others going back many centuries before Christ's birth. Again, why would God create a copy-cat method to usher in the one true God? It just doesn't make sense that he would copy an old outdated satanic trick used in the past.

Now, could God come to earth without being born of a virgin? Yes, and he did through Mary. So what if Joseph stepped up to bat before marriage? It happens all the time, these virgin births seem to be fairly common in every church I have ever attended.

Maybe the masses just couldn't handle the truth back then, but who are we to say how God decides to come to earth? He could have suddenly appeared without any birth, could have come from an grape, he could have been born from sinful seed, but without any sin. We can't make logical sense out of God's action, since he is above logical comprehension.

Could he have been born of a virgin? Yes! But was he? I don't think the evidence supports it. But it doesn't make any difference one way or the other because if it is false, then it was man who created the lie in the Bible, if it is true, it doesn't help support the fact that Jesus is Christ without us being able to prove it. Bottom line: It doesn't matter.

[ August 15, 2002, 12:40 AM: Message edited by: post-it ]

Bro. Curtis · Aug 15, 2002

Oh, brother

The Bible says virgin, over and over. Is it lying ?

I shore am glad God made me dumb enough to take him at his word.

An attack on he virgin birth is an attack on Christ's deity, is an attack on the Bible, and on all of what Christianity stands for.

C.S. Murphy · Aug 15, 2002

Thank you so much Mr.Curtis, Amen to your post. I am so tempted to attack Post it but I know it would do no good for anyone except the devil so I will Pray for him. I encourage everyone to do the same.
Murph

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