Original Sin and Universal Atonement

Clint, not choice in regards to being a sinner... choice in regards to sinning. People choose to sin. They choose to sin because they are a sinner (by nature).

 

PTW -

You had said:

I am asking you to show me WHERE the Scriptures say that a baby CHOOSES to sin. I am not denying that they do, I want to know how they choose to do so, that they are aware that it is sin, and that they are given an option not to sin. Adults and those that are aware of the law and the Gospel have these options but they have been made aware of them. Even Paul said:

and the Psalmist says:

 

I would also note that Christ quoted Psalm 8:2 in Matthew 21:16.

 

Hi Scott,

I believe the overwhelming amount of Scripture that point to the fact that in order to be saved we must believe. It is that simple. Salvation is that easy. But it is not always easy to believe. If anyone has spent any amount of time witnessing, we know that it is hard to persuade some people, they just don't want to believe. Perhaps it may be helpful in this discussion to define believe. Please excuse my mere appeal to Strongs here:

So to trust in Christ, with all our being. Much like a trust that we have when we sit down in our chairs, we know they are not going to break. It is a leaning type of trust. The object of that trust in in Jesus Christ who said that He is our sacrifice for sin, and that he is the one who is sinless - giving us His perfect righteousness. That He arose and is living, giving us life, eternal life. I trust that He has taken the place of me. That when God sees Chet, He sees Jesus imputed righteousness, and zero sin.

I say all that because I do not believe that Satan has that kind of trust. There are those who have a believe that there was a Jesus and this Jesus died for our sins. But they have not put their trust in Him. Furthermore, Satan is not the object of Christ's Salvation offer... we are. The Bible makes it clear that angles marvel at this great salvation but are not subject to it. So, yes the demons believe, but not unto saving belief. And even so, it is not for them. Furthermore, without going into great detail, I believe James is speaking to the justification before men. While Paul speaks more of the justification before God.

Looking at just one example at this time, lets consider Acts 16 again.

The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas. He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved-you and your household." Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house.
NIV

Scott here is a very clear example of a lost person who seeks to be saved. He ask the question to Paul, what must I do to be saved? This question is certainly within the dispensation of grace, its after the cross and it is recorded here for all to see. What is the answer? Believe. That is it. Paul did not tell this man to repent of all his sins, surrender his life, take up his cross, or anything like that. Paul did not answer to wait for the Spirit, or wait for God's irresistible call. Paul commanded that this man must believe in order to be saved. And this man did that.

Ephesians 2:8-9 is another good example that leads to my view point. It says:
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith-and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-not by works, so that no one can boast.

You read this passage to say that it is God's grace that is doing the saving. I read this passage to say that it is because of God's grace that he is saving. Certainly if it were not for God's grace we would all be going to hell. Grace means unmerited favor. He is giving us something we do not deserve. Titus 3:5 says that it is because of God's mercy that we are saved! So both are true. His mercy is not giving us something that we DO deserve. But because of his grace and mercy He sent His son. This passage also teaches that we have been saved through faith. So his grace could not reach us unless we first have faith. What is the gift of God here? The gift is Salvation. That is because He is giving us this salvation because of His grace through our faith. Faith pleases God, this is his condition of Salvation. Again I could provide literally hundreds of passages to show this.

We are born again when we believe. This is the work of God. He is making us born again. I did nothing to come into this world physically, I do nothing to be born spiritually either. This is the work of the Spirit (Titus 3:5).

Jesus made it clear that the way to be born again was just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert:

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

It is just that, to believe. Those who believe are not condemned, those who refuse to believe are condemned. I suppose one could try to change this meaning to say that those who believe are the ones God has elected and that is the evidence that they are of the elect. Making believing = assurance. I strongly reject that teaching, and if this is going to go down that road, then count me out of this discussion.

My contention is that the overwhelming amount of Scripture dealing with Salvation makes salvation hinge on a person believing and that is it. If one wants to look at what repentance is, closer, then I am game for that. I certainly have studied repentance quite a bit. I do not see Scripture commanding people to repent of sin in order to be saved. Simple believe. Now that is grace and mercy.

 

Chet,
So you saved You?
The work of your believing has saved you?
Jonah states that salvation is of God.......You imply that the catalyst is "believing". You believe thus God saves. Romans 9 says that God saves based on whom He wills whom He will have mercy upon.

Jesus's statement about being born again has nothing to do with your believing.....He doesn't mention believing in this context but in fact he does state how one becomes born again....you say it is a response to your believing. A cause and effect, sort of speak. Jesus says it has much to do with the caracteristics of the wind, much like the caracteristics of the Holy Spirit. John 1;12-13 says that it is not the will of man, you say it is the will of man???

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Ezek 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Ezek 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Ezek 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Ezek 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Ezek 36:28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
Ezek 36:29 I will also save you from all your uncleannesses:

~The above looks as if God is the sole caalyst to the new covenant! No conditions........

Maybe I am not understanding you?

[ October 21, 2002, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: Scott Bushey ]