Jehovah's Witness?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Larry:
Jehovah's Witness?

The older I get the more I misplace things! I use to have a pamphlet that spelled out some of the flip-flops and inconsistencies with the WatchTower, Charles Taze Russell etc.

An x Baptist, now JW will be dropping off some literature for me within the next week or so and I need to find a web site where I can print off literature for me to give in return (I'll read yours IF you will read mine).

As you may know, the JW's are schooled in delusion so I need something with documented JW flip-flops and rock solid, this is exactly what God said about it, Bible quotes so please KJVO.

Thanks,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here are some web sites that have been useful to me while dealing with a jw at work. Please don't consider this an endorsement of everything you might find on these sites.

The first goes directly to an article that is one of my favorites. You can go to the menu and see if there is anything else you can use...however, I definitely disagree with some of the theology expressed at this site.

I doubt any of these sites are KJVO. In fact, some of them contain good information against KJVOnlyism.

I can't recall what your position is on the issue but I would urge caution if you are KJVO and want to convert this guy. In west GA where I live there are alot of KJVO people. The jw's here have been trained to anticipate and react to KJV peculiarities. Especially, I John 5:7-8. They know that the evidence is weak for its inclusion in scripture and will turn off anyone who tries to use it authoritatively. They are also prepared to argue John 1:1 which does not vary much in any good translation but their bible calls the Word "a god."

I did have success with a few other verses. John 8:58 is good if you make reference back to the original Greek verb form. John 20:27-30 is good since Thomas calls Jesus God without being rebuked. Connecting the references to "Alpha and Omega" in Revelation is also good. John 1:18 and Titus 2:13 from the NASB left the jw I was dealing with speechless...which is usually a good thing since when they aren't talking-they don't have a programmed response.

God Bless You.
http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-Watchtower-BOOKLET=Should-You-Believe-the-Trinity=EXPOSED-REFUTED.htm
http://www.ultranet.com/~comments/index.html http://www.caic.org.au/zentry1.htm http://www.macgregorministries.org/jehovahs_witnesses/jehovah_witness_index.html http://www.freedomofmind.com/groups/jehovah/jehovah.htm http://www.rickross.com/groups/witness.html http://www.outofdarkness.org/ http://mypage.uniserve.ca/~renford/ http://www.freeminds.org/ http://www.watchman.org/watchman.htm

 

Here's a ton of good info:

C.A.R.M. (Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry)

 

Here's one for you buddy.
http://www.pioneerbooks.com/links.htm

 

Thanks to everyone for posting those sites, they will be very helpful to me as well.

This is a link to a VERY interesting story about an ex-JW.

Chet


THEY WANTED OUR BABY TO DIE

[ July 28, 2001: Message edited by: Chet ]

 

David reed did a book on Jeh witnesses answered verse by verse it is good. for you who do not like the KJV let me tell you only the KJV uses the received text. other translations use the vatican catholic alexandrian or vaticanus text translated by occultists called westcott and hort.
the watchtower uses Kittel as a translation also he was a convicted nazi war criminal and served time in prison from the nuremburg trials. makes you wonder. want quotes from westcott and hort that will make a real born again believers skin crawl? write me!!!

the truth will make you free jesus said

 

I am an ex JW. Been a Christian for 19 years.

I came out because I simply started reading the Bible alone after a loving Christian suggested I do.

I would never have listened to him if he was not humble, sincere, kind and loving.

They desperately need your help and love

[ August 11, 2001: Message edited by: Raulf7 ]

 

They also need respect for their viewpoint and ot condemnation

If we want to reach anyone, anyone at all it must be done in the most loving way. As the Apostle tells us <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has punishment; and the one fearing has not been perfected in love. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So we cannot frighten folk into God's kingdom, we must love them in, treating them with respect and joy and praying for them in hope.

Kiwimac

 

kiwimac

Fancy seeing you here, are you following me?

LOL

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kiwimac:
They also need respect for their viewpoint and ot condemnation

If we want to reach anyone, anyone at all it must be done in the most loving way. As the Apostle tells us

So we cannot frighten folk into God's kingdom, we must love them in, treating them with respect and joy and praying for them in hope.

Kiwimac<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Puh-lease!

 

kiwimac,

I'd have to say I disagree with you. Based on what you said and the following rebuke of certain religious leaders by Jesus, you should correct our Savior on how to deal with people:

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.' You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gift on it, he is bound by his oath.' You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? Therefore, he who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.
And he who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. And he who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness. Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers! You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? (Mat 23:33 NIV)

OUCH!

 

Now . . . I'm not saying start off with a JW or Mormon, or whatever the way Jesus was dealing with the Pharisees, but there comes a point when you frankly confront them with their spiritual blindness (like Jesus did here). The worse thing you could do for a lost " spiritually blind" person is to tell them, "Don't worry, God loves you anyway!"

 

I am an exJW the problem with many Christians is that when they come to your door, you have no idea how to deal with them nor take control of the visit.

You feel threatened and dont have a system of taking control and getting down to the important issues

 

I invite them in, offer them drinks and we talk about Jesus.

 

As an exJW I can tell you that they are trained to dance all over the Bible. You bring a point up about the Deity of Jesus and they will ignore it and say "Well what about Hell in this verse?"

Theres only one important point and thats the Deity of Jesus, if you can show that, their whole Theology falls apart.

I have had extensive training in sales and sales management and I use that on them when they come.

When they arrive at the door, be incredibly polite.

1. Tell them you have some questions and that you are interested in what they have to say.

2. Ask them how much time they have, this is important. Otherwise they will lie or make excuses to get away, when you are getting to them.

3. Ask them to use a good Bible only that you both can agree too. I use the KJV usually.

4. Get them to agree to use the Bible only and put all other books away. This is important.

Now you invite them in, sit them down and say:

"I only have one question, IF I can show you in the NT, that there are 3 separate person called God, would you be prepared to believe it?"

Now you might have to state that a couple of times and stress the "IF". They may say, "Its not in there"

You keep on target and say "Well, "IF', I can show you, will you believe it"?"

Eventually they will agree. Now YOU have control.

But tie one more thing down before you start. Say to them:

"I would like to show you a verse or two, and I would like you to give me your feelings on what it means. Now, I would like just to talk about the verse at hand and not jump all over the Bible, is that ok with you?"

So if they start trying to jump all over the place remind them that is not what you wanted:

"Mr JW remember earlier I asked that we stick to the verse at hand because I really want to get at the meaning of this particular verse"

If you do that once or twice they get the picture.

As you go through, just ask questions for example:

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Now, Mr JW who is the First and Last?

He will say Jehovah

Ask "Are you sure?"

He will agree.

Is anybody else the First and Last?

He says no.

You reply ok, then lets go to Rev 1:17-18

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Now when you read those verses stress the "I am the first and the last"

Then turn around and ask "When did Jehovah die?"

Dont tell him!!! Ask him

Next verse:

"This is Jehovah speaking":

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

When was Jehovah pierced?

Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Why did Jehovah call the Son "God" when theres only one God?

Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

If we are only allowed to worship God, why did Jehovah "command" we worship Jesus?

Psalms 90:2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Would you agree that only Jehovah comes from everlasting? (They agree)

Are you sure? (They agree)

Lets look at this:

Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Why is it that the Messiah came from everlasting and only Jehovah comes from everlasting?

* Pose a verse
* Ask a question

Lead them, dont push them!!