Total Depravity, Not Quite Total

There you go again, Chappie, not taking the Bible as a whole.

(Isaiah 64:6 NKJV) But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.

(Romans 3:9-21 NKJV) What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. {10} As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; {11} There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. {12} They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one." {13} "Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit"; "The poison of asps is under their lips"; {14} "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness." {15} "Their feet are swift to shed blood; {16} Destruction and misery are in their ways; {17} And the way of peace they have not known." {18} "There is no fear of God before their eyes." {19} Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. {20} Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. {21} But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

Sounds pretty total to me, and I think, to any reader of these verses who places his presupposition to not understand the gravity of these verses aside.

You see, Chappie, even the great saints in the Old Testament had the righteousness of Christ imputed to them. And once Christ's righteousness is ours it is indeed our possession and can be talked about as ours for Christ is the substitute, both actively and passively, for His people.

(Matthew 5:20 NKJV) "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

(2 Corinthians 9:10 NKJV) Now may He who supplies seed to the sower, and bread for food, supply and multiply the seed you have sown and increase the fruits of your righteousness,

No man stands before God in a righteous state unless Christ's righteousness is imputed to him.

(Jeremiah 33:16 NKJV) In those days Judah will be saved, And Jerusalem will dwell safely. And this is the name by which she will be called: THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

(1 Corinthians 1:30 NKJV) But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God; and righteousness and sanctification and redemption;

(2 Corinthians 5:21 NKJV) For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Man-made, man-honoring doctrines cannot stand in the light of the Scriptures.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ October 15, 2002, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

Chappie,

If we follow that argument - then Daniel saved himself by his own righteousness - and does not even need a savior - since his own righteousness is sufficent to save him - if not anyone else.

On the otherhand - the emphasis on "By their OWN righteousness" does place an emphasis on something that they either did or chose and others did not, or others chose not. For example, if we replace the idea of "their own righteousness" with - Christ's own righteousness - then the argument becomes "by Christ's own righteousness they could only save themselves" - as if Christ could only save one person.

Clearly then, it is not an appeal to Christ's righteousness "alone" since the case is made that ONLY 3 men would be saved by it. And neither is it man-righteousness-alone because then it would mean that man could save himself.

It can only be the choice of man enabled by Christ to freely choose - and the righteousness of Christ.

Bob

 

I believe every sinner is 'depraved' but not to the extent that he cannot respond to the claims of the Gospel. The Holy Spirit is more than willing to minister to the searching heart and many who at first, are not receptive to His guidance. The 'Image of God' [James 39] is not totally expunged from our souls and He 'lights' [John 1:9b] every sinner who is born into our world on this planet that we call earth.

If we are still made in the Image of God as our Calvinst writers agree with us, then is the Image of God in human beings also Totally Depraved? You see your problem, right?

 

I think it is totally sick for a totally depraved man to even hint to the fact that a man could save himself by his own righteousness. THE LORD IS OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

 

God's truth shows that He has honored the 'free agency of man' because he or she is made in the image of God. God calls for belief in Him. God wants our trust in Him. God desires our faith in Him; without it we are honoring a theological belief but not Christ.

 

Primitive Baptist,

You are correct. It is not our human righteousness that saves. It cannot save us. As you also know, the Bible tells us that ' . . . our righteousness is as filthy rags.' When we believe in Christ we receive the 'righteousness of Jesus Christ' [Romans 4:3,6,8] Thank God it is ours forever because of His infinite and wonderful plan of salvation.

 

AMEN!

John 10.27;

Bro. Dallas

 

To preach calvinism is to preach Christ.

The difference is made when we assume/or pretend to possess a righteousness apart from the righteousness of God in Christ.

Matt. 5.20; and Rom. 10.3;

Apart from hearing the call of God and receiving the righteousness of Christ; we are but self-righteous.
God Bless.

Bro. Dallas

[ October 16, 2002, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Frogman ]

 

"There is none righteous, no not one. There is none that understandeth. There is none that seeketh after God...There is none that doeth good, no not one."

What you said is essentially true. Anyone who seeks God will find Him... However, no one will seek God acting within their own free will. God has predestined and will call the elect according to Romans 8.

 

1) Actually, in an absolute sense it does, as everything we do, say, or think is tainted by our sin nature and even continues after we are saved and still in fleshly bodies. The only standing we have before God to enter into His presence is the righteousness of Christ Jesus. As the hymn says so well, "dressed in His righteousness alone".

2) The only side with a problem on this issue is yours, Chappie, as you are running around the Bible and appear to be trying to establish that you can be righteous on your own, apart from the righteousness of Christ Jesus. And in that task you destined to fail.

Have a great day, my friend.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

I sincerely doubt it if you think it is man's goodness (ability to do right) that enables him to accept Christ.

This is your distinction, not Paul's. Deal with the whole passage. He said "there is none that doeth good."

It does mean that none ever do right for the right reason within their own will.

This passage refers to physical deliverance. To attempt to draw larger meaning without respect to other scripture is to abuse the scripture.

That is the context in which it was written.

 

I normally stay out of this forum b/c I am so tired of this debate, but this sentence captured my attention:

Does one really want to go this far in defending "Calvinism"? If so, does this mean to preach Calvin's view of the church, the state, and the sacraments is also to "preach Christ"?

We must always remember that the primary JC in our lives should be Jesus Christ and not John Calvin

I will get out of here before I get dragged into some lengthy discussion about infinite mysteries that cannot be solved in a finite forum .

 

Before the anti-Calvinists jump on this, the use of the term "Calvinism" in this forum is referring to soteriology. For example, as a Baptist I would not agree with Calvin's paedo-baptism views. Preferably, we would refer to the the position that magnifies God's grace as the Doctrines of Grace but that is a longer name than to say Calvinism and we are stuck with it from its use in history. Unfortunately, it gives the anti-Calvinists a chance to take potshots at Calvin that are totally irrelevant to the soteriological position that we are discussing in this forum.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

Chappie,

1) You have known I am a Spurgeonite.

2) The problems I have with John Calvin's views on subjects such as baptism and church/state relations, are not relevant to soteriology, or salvation, issues.

3) In your post 2 posts above this one of mine, I guess you have found the one person in the world who has the authority to speak on behalf of Calvinism. But like I said, I'm a Spurgeonite.

Have a great day, my friend.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ October 16, 2002, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]