Total Depravity, Not Quite Total

This forum is for the discussion of issues relating to calvinism and arminianism. If you wish to discuss Bible versions, please use the appropriate forum.

[ October 17, 2002, 09:33 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

back to the topic at hand...

We all agree that Man is totally depraved but we aren't speaking about that we are speaking about INABILITY.

The flesh cannot be changed, reformed, trained, improved, or reconciled to God unless and until God changes it..but to say that because of this "INABILITY" a man cannot believe the gospel is another matter!

The Bible speaks of God being "Pleased" with Enoch (Heb. 11:5) with solomon's request (1 Kgs. 3:10) with choices made by Eunuchs (Isa. 56:4) With making ISRAEL HIS PEOPLE ( 1 sam 12:22) when Israel was blessed ( num 24:1) for his rightousness sake (Isa 42:21) when he revealed Christ to Paul (Gal.1 :16) with spiritual sacrafices (heb 13:16) and especially with his son(Isa 53:10, Mat.17:5,Col. 1:19)

But there are two other occassions when God Is said to be pleased. the first concerns man in general.

"when a man's ways please the LORD he maketh his enemies to be at peace with him" (pro. 16:7) and more relevant to the subject at hand:

"For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, It pleased God by the Foolishness of preaching to save them that Believe" (1 Cor 1:21)

Sirs what Must I do to be saved? They said BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Chrirst and thou shalt be saved.." ( acts 16:30,31)

So although man has the inability in his flesh to please God, God is pleased when sinners believe the Gospel.

 

Really, Chappie, really? Maybe you should go back through the list again. You missed this or else ignored it to try to make a silly point that you are totally wrong about. You obviously misrepresented what was in the brief, non-exhaustive list. Somehow, I am not surprised.

(Dan 4:17 NIV) "'The decision is announced by messengers, the holy ones declare the verdict, so that the living may know that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes and sets over them the lowliest of men.'

Also, as I said the list is not exhaustive. If Shilo is a one of those KJV-only types he can go the Bible Versions Forum and argue there.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

Are you denying that YHWH (LORD) is God? Are you denying that the Most High is God? Surely you are not stooping to that becuase that will get you banned from this forum since you have departed from trinitarian theology. Of course YHWH is God; when someone asked for references, you didn't think you would get them. Then when they showed up, you weren't sure what to do with them so you stoop to things like this ...

 

Being first "very good" then it is truly a matter of my exhibiting my "very goodness" as opposed to my second nature which is sinful. If I can learn to do this, then I have no need of a Saviour.

No, not at all.

Step 1- we're craeted "very good" by God.
Step 2 - We're immersed within sinful nature and are this inhierantly depraved. Our depravity prevents our ability to be fully "very good" as God created us.
Step 3 - Jesus washed us of our depravity, and we are therefore once again able to be the "very good" creatures that God made us to be.

 

Well, Chappie, I think so. Wanna own up to your mistake?

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ October 17, 2002, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

Of course. I did not quote you since I immediately followed your post. You made this statement. I am wondering if you will stick with it or change your view.

 

Bro. Chappie,

I appreciate your determination. But in the full reading of Scripture the Word of God does not contradict itself.

While we are looking at Ez. 18.31 let us also look upon Ez. 20 (the whole chapter), with attention to vss. 31-38.

God makes the plea in 18.31, certainly, this shows only the responsibility of man, not the ability;

"Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and long-suffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?" Rom. 2.4

(this is not referring to you; nor your character; I do not know you; I am only providing Scripture on the topic)

God Bless you in your walk and service to Him.
Bro. Dallas

 

Shilo asked for the biblical teaching that God is sovereign. Ken provided a list of verses proving that which you appeared to deny were talking about God becasue they used the name YHWH rather than elohim. What I was asking is if you are denying that YHWH is Elohim? That is what you appeared to deny. If you accept that YHWH is Elohim, then you should accept that verses describing YHWH as sovereign also apply to Elohim, since they are the same. If you deny that "sovereign Lord" can be applied to God, then you are denying a fundamental aspect of monotheism and trinitarian theology. It was a simple question, very kindly asked. You responded wrongly for some reason. All you had to do was explain what you meant. You did not need to respond as you did.

My question stands: Do you believe that YHWH and Elohim are the same God or not? If you believe that they are, then why do you deny that the title "Sovereign Lord" applies to Elohim as well?

 

I think what he was looking for was "sovereign" as an adjective (i.e. God is sovereign), rather than a title (and a poor translation of YHWH or Elohim at that--"Sovereign Lord").
He's not denying that Sovereign Lord is God; just that it is not the statement that God is "sovereign" [in the calvinistic sense] that he asked for.
I think this further illustrates the problem of questioning "sovereignty". It's not whether God is sovereign or not, but whether he exercises that sovereignty by electing and preteritioning individuals.

 

God Bless
Bro. Dallas

 

So now are we discussing deism?

Dan. 4.34-37

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas