Southern Baptist??

MY question would be; was he truly saved in his teen years? He could have come to church and saw the need of salvation and attending church and may have desired to live a more moral life, and tried. But; even if he backslid and committed a terrible sin as you mentioned, if the Holy Spirit was in him the Holy Spirit would be very grieved and burdened his heart to repent, If he was not convicted of sin he most likely never had the sprit in the first place.
Paula

 

You are right. It is difficult for us to believe that a person can kill an entire family and still go to heaven. But. . . let us look at two issues here. First, when Jesus died and rose again, everything changed--it changed from law (works) to GRACE. If we are saved, we are truly under "GRACE" and Jesus steps before the father when we are judged and says he's mine. His sin was washed by my blood. Remember, Paul indicated to be saved again would require a second dead of Christ.
I totally agree with the other response. Is this person a Christian to start with. Usually they are not. There are other issues that we must deal with too. When a person kills a family, regardless of what the courts and worldly psychologists say. That person has a "mental" problem. Whether Christian or not, something is wrong somewhere to cause such a hideous crime.
Look at one other thing Jesus said, he mentioned it was harder for a rich man to go to heaven than a camel to go through the eye of a needle (and NO this is not some little gate in the Jerusalem wall where a camel can kneel down. Jesus meant what he said, "a needle". But most people take this ENTIRELY out of context. Keep Reading. He then goes on to say, "with God all things are possible." When we are "saved" we "have" eternal life. This doesn't meant we "might" have eternal life if we don't commit a crime. If we are good enough. If we don't backslide, etc. It means, we HAVE eternal life (present tense). and NOBODY is able to take us from the hand of Jesus--and this includes Satan himself.
The bottom line: I question the salvation first, I look at the person for a mental problem or break-down, and yes that person will have to answer to Jesus for what he did, but he is still under GRACE -- not under the law. I hope this helps a little. I can provide you with the reference verses if you are not familiar with them. It is late and I'm writing off the top of my head.

 

reedee,

I am a Free Will Baptist. We do believe that one can give their salvation back to God by becoming an apostate. The situation you gave is a hard one to comment on. My question to you is, did God convict him of the sin and he refuse to repent of the sin. To use a illustration from the Bible. When David had Uriah killed and performed adultery, and Nathan came to him and told him the story of the lamb. Nathan said, " Thou art the man." As we know David repented of his sin through the 7 psalms he wrote, with psalm 51 being my favorite. If David would of rejected the Lord here he would of lost his salvation, and become an apostate. This also comes from Heb. 6:4-6. The arguement from one who believes in eternal security would that these verses are hypothetical. Verse 4, have tasted the Hevenly gift, were made partakers of the Holy Ghost. Verse 5, have tasted the good Word of God. We believe this passage to be literal. That this is a warning verse that a person can fall back into the world. Verse 6, If the shall fall away, meaning that one can fall away. Then in 2 Peter 2:20-22. This passage echos the same points of Hebrews. This also tells that it would of been better for them not of know God in salvation. We believe that once you have become an apostae you will stay that way. This comes from Heb. 6:6. I will also post a web site for you, I will have to look it up, sorry. I hope this will help you. If you want to know more I am happy to try to answer any question.

 

reedee,

In my last post I told you I would give you a web-site to read more about the Free Will Baptist. The site is www.nafwb.org. I hope this will help you out. Again if you have any questions feel free to ask.

In Christ
Mark

 

Reedee:

The problem in SBC churches is not the loss of salvation of some, which cannot occur in a true believer, but rather poor, Arminian-Finneyan methods of evangelization, decisional regeneration and altar calls, where one believes all they have to do is walk the aisle and "accept Jesus in their heart", without biblically repenting and acknowledging Him as Lord. By such methods we are now practicing the delayed-paedobaptism of children as young as 4 and 5.

For an excellent artilce on this issue, see Jim Eliff's article Southern Baptists, an Unregenerate Denomination at http://www.ccwonline.org/sbc.html

Also see Closing With Christ at http://www.ccwonline.org/closing.html

 

Chris,

I think you erred greatly in implying that all SBC churches have the problems you mentioned. I'm sure some do, as the SBC suffers from non-mainstream liberal thinking like everywhere else. My SBC church conducts a weekly "alter call," but when someone comes forward, they will undergo a counseling process and must demonstrate a complete understanding of NT salvation principals, AND evidence of being convicted by the Holy Spirit of their hopelessness without Christ, in order for our pastor to agree to baptize them. The water immersion baptism then is a public profession of faith, a witness to the unsaved, and edification of the believers present, that true spiritual baptism has already taken place in the heart and soul of the individual!

 

wellsjs:

I was speaking of the SBC in general and not of all universally (kinda like the Biblical words "world" and "all men"!)

My church is similar to yours. New members must also go through a new members class in order to understand basic doctrine and polity.

But the larger majority of SBC churches are the walk 'em, dip 'em and join 'em variety, by far.

 

Dear Reedee,

I disagree with anyone who says that one can lose their salvation. God's Word says that only God can judge the heart of man. God has never lost a single person who's hearts were right with Him when they made Him Lord of their life, i.e. gave their heart to Him.

The problem is, Satan, the great Deceiver, loves to get involved in this process, and many people who's hearts are not truly sincere, have a "salvation experience" and think they are saved, when in fact they are not. They fool others and they even are fooled themselves into thinking they have eternal salvation through Christ.

Every church has some of these. Now don't go looking strangely at folks trying to decide "are they" or aren't they!" Leave that up to God. But there are indicators. My pastor says a person's checkbook and calendar are good indicators . Where people spend their money and their time says more about them than how much they can impress you with their knowledge of the scriptures.

Not sure what this "losing one's salvation" has to do with your wanting to change denominations, but if you feel your church is heretical, then look for one that's not, with much prayer and scrutiny. If you find one and feel that God has led you to it, whatever the denomination, follow God!

 

Chris,

Well you know what they say about opinions! Mine differs from yours in that those SBC churches as you describe them are in the minority.

 

I am SBC and we do have an alter call every week. But our pastor specifically asks the person that they have repented, accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior.

So when I see statement like these I never know what people are talking about. We have had two pastors since becoming christians ten years ago, they both did the same thing.

==Southern Baptists, an Unregenerate Denomination ==

And just what is this supose to mean?

 

=== http://www.ccwonline.org/sbc.html===


This site appears to be saying that if you don't go to church evertime the door is opened, you aren't a real christian.

We do not judge a persons salvation. God does. All we can do is believe them if they say they have repented, and been saved.

Is this about all anyone here can say about others not of their church? Aren't we supose to be baptists here? But constantly someone is running down one baptist church or another. I am sick of it. This site speaks about brotherly love, but doesn't do much of it, and neither do some here who seem to severly dislike those in other churches besides their own, even if we are all baptists. I don't know who wrote this article, but they know nothing nothing about what goes on inside my church. They haven't bothered to find out. Since this terrable tradegy thing has happened in my family I have found so much love and support from my church family. Phone calls to see if I'm alright, visits, emails, cards. And lots of hugs. I don't know how long this is going to go on in my life, but my church family is going the whole distance with me and my husband. Theres certainly more christian love in my church then the author of this article has. I have seen my church demonstrate nothing but Christ likeness, acting like Jesus, loving us, and taking care of us. My husband sings in the choir, and last week a woman saw me crying in church and walked out of the choir to see if I was alright, and stood holding while I cried, and then stood with me till my husband came down, and a lot of people came over to ask her if I was alright. After church that morning and that night, I was asked by a bunch more. These people are always asking if we're alright, hows my son, and so on.

I am getting tired of christian back biting, which I only run acoss on the internet. Even our different denominations aren't poised to attact like people on the internet are.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wellsjs:
Chris,

Well you know what they say about opinions! Mine differs from yours in that those SBC churches as you describe them are in the minority.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wellsjs:

The numbers say differently. In SBC churches in the U.S. 70% of the membership is missing. Why would regenerate, born-again believers not be in the Father's house on the Lord's Day? Why do 10% of membership perform all the ministry?

Praise God my church and yours (and apparently the ones you are familiar with) are not like this, but sadly, most SBC churches are.

[ July 14, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by katie:
We do not judge a persons salvation. God does. All we can do is believe them if they say they have repented, and been saved.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Katie:

You are opposed to others who judge, and then you judge those who are addressing the problems in our churches

It is a common error in churches to say we cannot judge other believers; rather Jesus makes it clear that we must first judge ourselves, and then we can judge others. The spiritual state of others are judged by their fruit. The lack of Baptists willing to honor the word of God with church discernment and discipline is the reason our churches are in the sorry state they are.

Baptists arose with one purpose: to honor God by having a fully regenerate membership. This meant abandoning infant baptism, and admitting to membership only those who profess Christ as Savior. It does not mean walking an aisle, and never ever acting like a son of God in one's life, but receving him as Lord and Savior. It also means practicing God-given church discipline, and putting the unrepentant sinners out of fellowship, so that they may repent and be brought back in.

Love without discipline is tolerance and relativity, not biblical love.

If we as Baptists are unwilling to guard the front door and guide the exit, we might as well go back to paedobaptism and let everyone join the church who calls himself a Christian.

[ July 14, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

 

Chris Temple

Is it alright to judge believers you don't even know? Shouldn't you know the person you are judging?

Are you taking into account those believers who work everyother Sunday(the world no longer makes allowances for people to go to church when they are given a job). Which working christians can avoid working on Sunday? Policemen? Firmen? Hospital employees? The guy who answeres the 911 phone? Ambulance drivers? The mother tring to take care of her children on minnium wage who is required to work some if not all Sundays? If your electric went out on Sunday, would you want ti fixed? If you needed a tow truck on Sunday, would you expect there to be one? How about a taxi?

Some of thse missing people are at work and go to church either Sunday night, or mid week service.
Our church has a lot of older people, many are shut ins, many are not able to go to church everytime the door is open.
We also have a lot of younger(under 25-35) with a lot of young children(mostly infant to 6 yrs.) What are those families too do when they have a sick child?
What if were your parent sick and needed someone to take care of them? Would you say sorry mom, gotta go to church? (Talking christianity, but not living it).
How about when the car breaks down, and there is no transportation, I live in a rural area, where a car is a must.

Granted there are a lot of christians who just plain stay home.
But that is every church, every denomination.
How many are members of your church?(Have your church secratary check the roll of membership and count), How many attended last week? Members, not visitors.

How you can not know someone and call them, and a whole church/denomination unregenerate, unredeemed, unsaved, nonbelievers, is beyond me, and I see nothing in the bible thats tells you too. You have call the whole SBC a non believeing church,all liars and false christians.

This is not christian behavior.

Mamnybe you should look at yourself, and your own church first.

 

===to honor God by having a fully regenerate membership===

Is everyone who walks through your church doors a Baptist, baptized bliever. 100% proof positive?
The bible says false believers will be among us, some will come in in sheeps clothing. They aren't just in SBC, but your church too.If satan can descise himself as an angel of light, his people in our churches can look like a believer. MAybe even 70 % of your own church.

 

Katie,

I agree! Satan, the great Deceiver, is having a field day in every church that exists. His weapon is delusion, and probaby only about 10% of the "call themselves Christian" community are outside Satan's grip.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

"Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: "and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: "and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall." (Matt 7:21-27)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The key to those Jesus will "know" vs. those He will not "know" is OBEDIENCE! It jumps out of this passage boldly.

Many among us in our churches are victims of self-deception! Here is a breakdown of the delusions:
1) False assurance
2) Failure of self examination - "Examine thyself"
3) Fixation on religious activity
4) Fair exchange - overlook negative area in your life with exchanging it for something good in it.

The deceived:
1) Superficial - come twice a year, call themselves Christians types, or "I don't need to go to church to be saved."
2) Involved - know the gospel, know the theology, don't obey the Word of God.
a)Keys:
1) feelings, blessings, experiences, healings, angels, miracles (interested in themselves rather than exhaultation of Christ)
2) More committed to organization than to Christ (Catholics, but also other denominations of protestants)
3) theology as an academic interest (an intellectual activity)
4) stuck on over-emphasized area of theology (lack of balance)
5) Over-indulgent in the name of grace - lacks penitance

If you don't feel like going out into "the world" to evangelize, there's plenty of opportunity in your church, if it's of any fair sized membership!

Blessings!

[ July 14, 2001: Message edited by: wellsjs ]

 

I agree, katie and wellsjs. Satan knew that a great way to hurt the cause for Christ is get casual, lukewarm Christians (like the church of Laodicea). It's easy to pinpoint one church or denomination, but the fact of the matter is is that we all sin and the old nature can still come out. It does shame me to look at the membership roll and compare it to the attendance...and i do wonder how many on that roll and in attendance are truly born-again believers. But God desires mercy and obedience...let's make sure we are in love with Christ and pray for our churches so that they will bear fruit and we will not be lukewarm. As a young preacher, it's been extremely hard to visit a lukewarm, coldchurch and preach in their pulpit. At first I was extremely cynnical and angered at their legalism (which still angers me) but i finally also had to come to terms with the fact that these people are people God loves, and that I need to see them as He sees them. It does disgust God to see lukewarm Christians, but He also desires to grant them mercy, love, and repentance. Thus, the last time I had the opportunity to preach, I thanked the Lord for the opportunity to share His Word to the people and prayed that I would see them not on worldy terms but through God's point-of-view. When I do that I find myself going to my own knees in repentance for my own legalism and lukewarmness.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by katie:
===to honor God by having a fully regenerate membership===

Is everyone who walks through your church doors a Baptist, baptized bliever. 100% proof positive?
The bible says false believers will be among us, some will come in in sheeps clothing. They aren't just in SBC, but your church too.If satan can descise himself as an angel of light, his people in our churches can look like a believer. MAybe even 70 % of your own church.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly my, and Jim Elliff's, point.

So is that a reason to increase vigilence in our churches, through more stringent membership criteria and church discipline, or a reason to throw our hands in the air and say, "Oh well"?