The Great Tribulation

Chet,

I received your message. It is a happy day when God shows a person something new even though it has been received vicariously. It's great that we can be a part of that long train of saints who have already arrived home.

Ray

 

We have all missed the Great Tribulation. It has already occurred and we are now past it. It's alright. None of us were even born when it happened.

Consider the following.

(Quote is from Paradise Restored by David Chilton).

 

<<And while some were talking about the Temple, that it was adorned with beautiful stones and votive gifts, He said, 'As for these things which you are looking at, the days will come in which there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down" Luke 21:5-6. >>

<<The only possible interpretation of Jesus' words which He Himself allows, therefore, is that He was speaking of the destruction of the Temple which then stood in Jerusalem, the very buildings which the disciples beheld at that moment in history. The Temple of which Jesus spoke was destroyed in the fall of Jerusalem to the Roman armies in A.D. 70. This is the only possible interpretation of Jesus' prophecy in this chapter. The Great Tribulation ended with the destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70.>>

Then you may have a problem since the Wailing Wall is claimed to be the Western Wall of Solomon's Temple. Now since the Wailing Wall still stands the prophecy "there will not be left one stone upon another which will not be torn down" has not yet been fulfilled.

http://www.olivebranch.com/isreal/jesurwall.htm



HankD

 

The operative word there is claimed to be. "Is" does not flow from "claimed." "Might be" is the best that one can say. Irrespective, that is irrelvent: the temple in question and over which Jesus was speaking was Herod's temple, not Solomon's, since it was not then standing at the time and had already been destroyed.

That is why we need to go not to the claimes of men but the infallible word of God. And if a truth is in Scripture that is important, it will be backed up in other ways. This is the case with the abover interpretation of the Great Tribulation. What follows will deal with "the last days." Do we live in the last days? Hardly. The last days was the period between Christ's birth and the destruction of Jerusalem. We are not in. They are past. Consider the following.

The texts quoted above comprise all the Bible passages that mention the word antichrist, and from them we can draw several important conclusions:

First, the Christians had already been warned about the coming of antichrist (1st John 2:18; 4:3).

Second, there was not just one, but "many antichrists" (1st John 2:18). The term antichrist, therefore, cannot be simply a designation of one individual.

Third, antichrist was already working as John wrote: "even now many antichrists have arisen" (1st John 2:18); "I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you" (1st John 2:26); "you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world" (1st John 4:3); "many deceivers have gone out into the world. . . . This is the deceiver and the antichrist" (2nd John 7). Obviously, if the antichrist was already present in the first century, he was not some figure who would arise at the end of the world.

Fourth, antichrist was a system of unbelief, particularly the heresy of denying the person and work of Jesus Christ. Although the antichrists apparently claimed to belong to the Father, they taught that Jesus was not the Christ (1st John 2:22); in union with the false prophets (1st John 4:1), they denied the Incarnation (1st John 4:3; 2nd John 7, 9); and they rejected apostolic doctrine (1st John 4:6).

Fifth, the antichrists had been members of the Christian Church, but had apostatized (1st John 2:19). Now these apostates were attempting to deceive other Christians, in order to sway the Church as a whole away from Jesus Christ (1st John 2:26; 4:1; 2nd John 7, 10).

Putting all this together, we can see that antichrist is a description of both the system of apostasy and individual apostates. In other words, antichrist was the fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy that a time of great apostasy would come, when "many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many" (Matt. 24:10-11). As John said, the Christians had been warned of the coming of antichrist; and, sure enough, "many antichrists" had arisen. For a time, they had believed the gospel; later they had forsaken the faith, and then went about trying to deceive others, either starting new cults or, more likely, seeking to draw Christians into Judaism – the false religion which claimed to worship the Father while denying the Son. When the doctrine of antichrist is understood, it fits in perfectly with what the rest of the New Testament tells us about the age of the "terminal generation."

. . . .

Returning to John’s statements about the spirit of antichrist, we should note that he stresses one further, very significant point: as Jesus foretold in Matthew 24, the coming of antichrist is a sign of "the End": "Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have arisen; from this we know that it is the last hour" (1st John 2:18). The connection people often make between the antichrist and "the last days" is correct enough; but what is often missed is the fact that the expression the last days, and similar terms, are used in the Bible to refer, not to the end of the physical world, but
to the last days of the nation of Israel, the "last days" which ended with the destruction of the Temple in A .D. 70. This, too, will come to many as a surprise; but we must accept the clear teaching of Scripture. The New Testament authors unquestionably used "end-times" language when speaking of the period they were living in, before the fall of Jerusalem. As we
have seen, the Apostle John said two things on this point: first, that antichrist had already come; and, second, that the presence of the antichrist was proof that he and his readers were living in "the last hour."

In one of his earlier letters, Paul had had to correct a mistaken impression regarding the coming judgment on Israel. False teachers had been frightening the believers by saying that the day of judgment was already upon them. Paul reminded the Christians of what he had explained before:

By the end of the age, however, as John was writing his letters, the Great Apostasy –the spirit of antichrist, of which the Lord had foretold – was a reality.

Jude, who wrote one of the very last New Testament books, leaves us in no doubt about this issue. Issuing strong condemnations of the heretics who had invaded the church and were at- tempting to draw Christians away from the orthodox faith (Jude 1-16), he reminds his readers that they had been warned of this very thing:

Jude clearly regards the warnings about the "mockers" as referring to the heretics of his own day — meaning that his own day was the period of "the last time." Like John, he knew that the rapid multiplying of these false brethren was a sign of the End. Antichrist had arrived, and it was now the Last Hour.</font>[/QUOTE]Quotes excerpted from Paradise Restored by David Chilton.

[ March 01, 2002, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: LP ]

 

MORE:

Was Paul talking about "latter times" which would happen thousands of years later? Why should he warn Timothy of events which Timothy, and Timothy's great-great-grandchildren, and fifty or more generations of descendants, would never live to see? In fact, Paul tells Timothy, "If you instruct the brethren in these things, you will be a good minister of Jesus Christ" (1st Tim. 4:6). The members of Timothy's congregation needed to know about what would take place in the "latter days," because they would be personally affected by those events. In particular, they needed the assurance that the coming apostasy was part
of the overall pattern of events leading up to the end of the old order and the full establishing of Christ's Kingdom. As we can see from passages such as Colossians 2:18-23, the "doctrines of demons" Paul warned of were current during the first century. The "latter times" were already taking place. This is quite clear in Paul's later statement to Timothy:

The very things Paul said would happen in "the last days" were happening as he wrote, and he was simply warning Timothy about what to expect as the age wore on to its climax. Antichrist was beginning to rear its head.

Other New Testament writers shared this perspective with Paul. The letter to the Hebrews begins by saying that God "has in these last days spoken to us in His Son" (Heb. 1:2); the writer goes on to show that "now once at the end of the ages He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself" (Heb. 9:26). Peter wrote that Christ "was foreknown before the
foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for you who through Him are believers in God" (1st Pet. 1:20-21). Apostolic testimony is unmistakably clear: when Christ came, the "last days" arrived with Him. He came to bring in the new age of the Kingdom of God. The old age was winding down, and would be thoroughly abolished when God destroyed
the Temple.
</font>[/QUOTE]Quotes taken from Paradise Restored by David Chilton.

[ March 01, 2002, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: LP ]

 

LP, preterism has its place in the same pit as all other false doctrine. What you are talking about is a prostitution of the Scripture to fit into a preconceived idea.

First, the phrase "this generation" does not always refer to the Jews in the days of Christ. Once that preterist pillar is removed, the whole theory falls down, hard.

Second, the tribulation is still future. Mt 24 and Lk 21 refer to future events.

Third, the angel told the disciples that Jesus would return in like manner. How did Jesus ascend? Personally, bodily, visibly. How will Jesus return? Personally, bodily, visibly. How does preterism say that Jesus came back? Invisibly, "in the clouds", non-bodily. Logically then preterism would have to say that Jesus ascended the same way. So we have an invisible, "in the clouds", non-bodily ascension. What does that do to the resurrection? It makes it synonymous to the heresy of the Jehovah's Witlesses. Good association.

Finally, preterism is just an excuse for Christians today to try to focus on cultural change instead of the changing of individuals.

I realize some of this might sound harsh, I am just tired of dealing with this theory. It is just plain heretical.

 

LP, preterism has its place in the same pit as all other false doctrine. What you are talking about is a prostitution of the Scripture to fit into a preconceived idea.

Funny, that is exactly what I think of Dispenastionally based eshatology. That 100 year old or so thing.

First, the phrase "this generation" does not always refer to the Jews in the days of Christ. Once that preterist pillar is removed, the whole theory falls down, hard.

Site Scriptural basis. The above Scriptural basis cites EVERY use of the term in the gospels, with each one meaning the sum total of those living at the time.

Second, the tribulation is still future. Mt 24 and Lk 21 refer to future events.

Again, you argument has convinced me. What argument? How about taking the details of the above on this issue and countering it on its points.

Third, the angel told the disciples that Jesus would return in like manner. How did Jesus ascend? Personally, bodily, visibly. How will Jesus return? Personally, bodily, visibly. How does preterism say that Jesus came back? Invisibly, "in the clouds", non-bodily. Logically then preterism would have to say that Jesus ascended the same way. So we have an invisible, "in the clouds", non-bodily ascension. What does that do to the resurrection? It makes it synonymous to the heresy of the Jehovah's Witlesses. Good association.

You display only your ignorance of the position, at least as I hold it. Deal with this on its points http://www.freebooks.com/docs/html/dcpr/Chapter11.htm and not in sweeping genralizations.

Finally, preterism is just an excuse for Christians today to try to focus on cultural change instead of the changing of individuals.

Hardly. BOTH are dealt with in Scripture.

I realize some of this might sound harsh, I am just tired of dealing with this theory. It is just plain heretical.

Counter it's points. I think dispensational pre-millenialism is error ("Heretical" is too far since that is foremost an issue of Chistology).

[ March 01, 2002, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: LP ]

 

&lt;&lt;the temple in question and over which Jesus was speaking was Herod's temple, not
Solomon's, since it was not then standing at the time and had already been destroyed.&gt;&gt;

Thank you for that observation LP , I suppose now some will say that the wailing wall is really part of Herod's Temple.

Anyway, as I said before I can't quite accept either position : preterist or pre-mill/pre-trib.
Each has difficulties.

Preterism doesn't answer to the global world-wide cataclysmic aspects of the Second Coming, on the other hand, I can't find sufficient scriptural support for a secret "rapture" of believers with airplanes falling out of the sky etc...

But thats me and I certainly won't impugn the faith of a believer with either view.

I guess I'm what one person has defined as a pan-millenialist: It will all pan out in the end.

HankD

 

There should be a distinction made between partial-preterism (orthodox and historical) and full-preterism (heterodox). The former believes much of NT prophecy was fulfilled in the first century, but the Second coming, general ressurection and final judgment are still future; the latter believes Christ already came in AD 70.

See A Brief Theological Analysis of Hyper-Preterism and Hymenæus Resurrected

 

Amen, HankD. I have the utmost of respect for this position.

Especially the "I certainly won't impugn the faith of a believer with either view."

Each side may belieive the other is in error, but to call eachother hereitcs over these eschatologies is, I think, way out of line.

I am very glad there are true brethren on both sides. I do try very much to act like it. I don't have any problem with loving and working together for the Faith of Christ with either side)s).

We may debate about eschatology, but in the end, if we don't remember there are true brethren on both sides of this, it is then that we truly lose.

 

Good point, CT. Note that partial pre-terists can believe that Christ came in judgement in 70 A.D., but that He will of course come finally and definitively in the end. I am convinced of this form of partial-preterism (orthodox and historical).

[ March 01, 2002, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: LP ]

 

PreachtheWord said:

LP, preterism has its place in the same pit as all other false doctrine. What you are talking about is a prostitution of the Scripture to fit into a preconceived idea.

Nonsense. Everyone is a preterist to the extent that they believe some prophecy has already been fulfilled. Do you find prophetic significance in the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948? Congratulations, you're a preterist.

First, the phrase "this generation" does not always refer to the Jews in the days of Christ.

Then what is the definition of "generation" when Jesus uses it in Matt. 24:34? Remember that the Dispensationalist hermeneutic is "consistently literal," and therefore you shouldn't have to "spiritualize" this passage in any way.

Second, the tribulation is still future. Mt 24 and Lk 21 refer to future events.

Future to Jesus and the disciples at that time, certainly. But unless you hold to a non-literal "generation," it can hardly be said to be future to us, unless you believe there are still 2000-year-old Jews walking the earth.

 

HankD,

My understanding of temples is that there were three of these structures successively built on Mt. Moriah. First, Solomon's Temple, secondly, Zerubbabel's Temple, and Herod's Temple that was in existence while our Lord was on the earth.

There will be a Great Tribulation Temple--II Thessalonians 2:4 and the Messianic Temple that will be on earth when Jesus sits in Jerusalem during His theocracy--Zechariah 14:16 and Ezekiel chapters 40-45:2 & 4.

When the antichrist sits in the Great Tribulation Temple he will have defiled it. God Himself will bless the Messianic or Millinium Temple by His sitting on the 'throne of His father, David,' during the 1,000 reign of Christ on the earth. We will be a part of this era of continuing everlasting life. I take it that you believe you receive eternal life, when you receive Christ savingly, into your heart.

Ray

 

The "Great Tribulation Temple"? It never ceases to amaze me how "inventive" with the Word of God that dispensationalists must become to maintain their eschatological position. It would be funny if it were not.

Rather,

The only possible interpretation of Jesus' words which He Himself allows, therefore, is that He was speaking of the destruction of the Temple which then stood in Jerusalem, the very buildings which the disciples beheld at that moment in history. The Temple of which Jesus spoke was destroyed in the fall of Jerusalem to the Roman armies in A.D. 70. This is the only possible interpretation of Jesus' prophecy in this chapter. The Great Tribulation ended with the destruction of the Temple in A.D. 70.

Even in the (unlikely) event that another temple should be built sometime in the future, Jesus' words in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 have nothing to say about it. He was talking solely about the Temple of that generation. There is no Scriptural basis for asserting that any other temple is meant. Jesus confirmed His disciples' fears: Jerusalem's beautiful Temple would be destroyed within that generation; her house would be left desolate.</font>[/QUOTE]Quotes excerpted from Paradise Restoed by David Chilton

[ March 01, 2002, 09:36 PM: Message edited by: LP ]

 

What is the point in saying that Herod's Temple was destroyed? I agree with these facts that Titus destroyed many, many of the Israelites in that city in 70 A.D.

This still does not get you out of the dilemma that the antichrist will sit in the Great Tribulation Temple. The Apostle Paul documents this future event in II Thess. 2:4. Don't do a hit and run with your statements. Deal with the Biblical truth coming from God through His chosen penmen.

What say ye?

Use a modern translation and see for yourself.

Ray

 

The words of Christ are as follows:

This is Matthew 24:29-34

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

"Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors! Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.

Now, Jesus said, "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

1. Jesus did not appear yet.
2. ALL THE TRIBES of the earth have not mourned (if anything they cheered).
3. Nobody saw the Son of Man according to the preterist view.

Now, that is enough to dismiss the whole theory, but why not go further?

4. The angels haven't gathered the elect.
5. Jesus said that the generation that sees all these things (Mt 24) comes to pass will not pass away till it is all fulfilled. In other words, the tribulation will not be so long that the current generation will not see it complete. This fits perfectly where it belongs - still in the future. This is the literal understanding of the passage. It is only the highly subjective "spiritualization" method that is totally inconsistent that force feeds "this generation" into always meaning 1st century Jews. Context is so important. Now, I am not a Chaferian dispy. I don't agree with Scofield on many points. So, truthfully, I can't be tossed aside with all other dispies that make a fool of themselves (LaHaye, Falwell, etc.).
6. It is interesting that Jesus mentions Noah. He says that the events He is prophesying will be like nothing man has known. LP, are you going to try and convince people that the destruction of a building and part of a city is greater that the destruction of the whole world? That won't fly with thinking people.

I listed points as to why preterism is false. It cannot come up with a single substantial objection. Instead, a closer look reveals many holes. It is late so I end early. I have spent hours at a time before refuting this stuff in person. I have no desire to type that long.

 

Dear Ray,

You asked...

&lt;&lt;I take it that you believe you receive eternal life, when you receive Christ savingly, into your heart.&gt;&gt;

Yes, Christ has been in my heart from the day He found me.

HankD

 

Preach the Word,

I like your insight of Biblical truth where you said in effect, 'All these things spoken of will come to pass within a generation.' Better than well said. I wonder if any of our learning students have seen verse 29 happen to date. In my history classes in high school and college the professors never spoke of the 'stars falling from the heavens' causing great havoc on the earth. Neither has anyone to date seen the Lord appear at the Second Coming. One of the reasons why they haven't seen Him is because He will take the church to Heaven at what theologians call the rapture. [I Thess. 4:17].

The Lord was not careless with His words in Matt. 24:21 when He had Matthew use the unique phrase, 'Great Tribulation.' Other horrendous times during the church age were spoken of as merely, 'tribulation.' [Rev. 2:9] for example.

My regards,

Ray

 

The fact is, Matt 24, Luke 21 are both preterist and futurist (already-not yet). Most of those prophecies were fulfilled in AD 70; those speaking of the 2nd Coming have not yet occurred

 

Matthew 24:1-2 indicates that the disciples wanted to show Jesus ‘ . . . the buildings of the Temple.' Who knows what they were going to show Jesus. Apparently, they were in proximity to the Temple, if they were going to show Him the buildings. {Preterist}

The transition takes place in verse three, when the location has moved from the Temple area, to the Mount of Olives, plus then ‘ . . . the disciples came to Him privately.' Now the discussion moves from ‘buildings' to ‘. . . what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?' {Futurist}

I believe that all will agree that the end of the world has not taken place yet. So from the time of Christ's private meeting with His disciples, this projects a futuristic interpretation of Matthew chapter 24. And as PreachtheWord said in his/her post all of these events from Matt. 24:5-42, will take place within a ‘generation of time.' [ vs. 34] Biblical eschatology submits that the Great Tribulation will last seven years, well within the time framework of one generation.

Many Christians, and I am one of them, who believes that salvation is by grace alone through faith plus nothing. Many Christians and theologians believe that some truly saved Christians might not endure unto the end as to their endurance in the faith. This is not to say that they will again be lost.

What is interesting about Matthew 24:13 is that God said that only those who ‘ . . . shall endure unto the end shall be saved.' God is not teaching salvation by faith and works. This endurance during the Great Tribulation suggests clearly that only those who refused the mark of the antichrist and incur their physical death will be saved eternally. There will be millions, I think, who will evade this edict to kill all who do not take that mark. [Revelation 13:16-18]. Mega-millions will not endure and will take the ‘mark of the Beast' which will ensure their entry into Hell at the hour of their death.

Christians suffer tribulation {like Revelation 2:9; II Corinthians 1:4; Romans 5:3; I Thessalonias 3:4} in China, North Korea, Russia and other parts of the world, but one day is coming when the antichrist will grip the peoples of this world, during the Great Tribulation, {like Matthew 24:21 & Revelation 7:14}an unprecedented time of human brutality.

Brethren, keep looking up, our redemption is nearer than ever before.

Respectfully,

Ray