Some Things That “Limited Atonement” Does Not Mean:

Please forgive me but I have to admit that in the rough-and-tumble atmosphere of this forum I do occasionally enjoy seeing the methods of non-Calvinists shoveled back to them in spades.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

Please, please, please quote in context. If you want to use this as a "proof-text" for the Arminian position, don't leave out the next verse (v. 13)

"Who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Rev. G

 

Larry,

I have found in my interactions with Chappie that he does seriously consider the issues. I admit that occasioanlly I have ot remind him that ther are somethings we have already agreed on, and he should argue from that agreement, and not the disagreement we started out with, but that is a very minor thing. You likely will have to do the same thing, occasionaly reminding him about things alredy pointed out. Such is to be expected in this environment when posts that are close on the webpage can be separated by days in terms of posting time.

Sometimes I fid it useful to remember thatthe flow and continuity that are seen in these conversations is in some ways artificial.

Chappie is earnest in his efforts to understand. That ismy experiene. I encourage you to accept that and respond to him accordingly. I find that if you do, he responds in kind.

 

This same word is translaged "drag" in both James 2 ("Do not the rich oppress you and DRAG you into the courts"), and in Acts where Paul and Silas are "dragged" before the authorities. So, the New Testament, which was originally written in Greek, would here seem to support the Calvinistic position.

Rev. G

 

You guys have to admit, this is pretty clever. I wonder how long it will be until we have the "Calvinistic" version. Oh, wait! We do. "Amazing Grace" was authored by a Calvinist, John Newton.

Rev. G

[ October 06, 2002, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]

 

"You guys have to admit, this is pretty clever. I wonder how long it will be until we have the "Calvinistic" version. Oh, wait! We do. "Amazing Grace" was authored by a Calvinist, John Newton."

Good one!

 

I too have found exchanges with him to be enjoyable. I get a little frustrated when he misrepresents what I have made explicit and when he says that I should do something that I have done, namely talk about Scripture in context. I have tried to point out to him some of the fallacies of his interpretive scheme by showing Scripture in context. As I say, I appreciate his contribution and participation but I encourage him as I do all not to misrepresent the other position.

On that topic, the song parody is quite funny and while some will take offense, it is intended as a humorous contribution. I would urge any arminian to answer the questions put forth by it.

 

v1 Arminian "grace!" How strange the sound, Salvation hinged on me.
I once was lost then turned around,
Was blind then chose to see.
v2 What "grace" is it that calls for choice,
Made from some good within?
That part that wills to heed God's voice,
Proved stronger than my sin.
v3 Thru many ardent gospel pleas,
I sat with heart of stone.
But then some hidden good in me,
Propelled me toward my home.
v4 When we've been there ten thousand years, Because of what we've done,
We've no less days to sing our praise,
Than when we first begun.

An answer:

v1: Arminian grace is not strange. God gives the opportunity for all men to repent, for it is His will that all men repent. Salvation does not hinge on the man. Without Christ, there is no salvation.

v2: What "grace" is it that gives no choice?

v3: It's not through any hidden good that a man is saved. It's through the drawing of the Spirit.

v4: Anyone who sings their own praise about salvation is an idiot - not a true Arminian. It's not about us. It's about Jesus Christ.

How's those for answers?

 

Latreia:
These comments are made by Pastor Larry. I would like to have a point by point evaluation by you if it is possible.

Also, could you evaluate the following:

John 6:65
65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
John 6:64-65
65And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."
NKJV

John 6:65
65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."
NIV

John 6:65
65And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.
ASV

John 6:65
65And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
NASU

John 6:65
65And he remarked, "That is what I meant when I said that no one can come to me unless the Father attracts him to me."
TLB

Only the NIV, translates in a way that is favorable to your cause.

Ok, all you Hebrew talkers, which is the best and more accurate translation. Enabled, granted, given attracts. Is it salvation by devine decree??

John 6:65
65And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

John 6:65
65Kaí élegen Diá toúto eíreeka humín hóti oudeís dúnatai eltheín prós me eán-meé eé dedoménon autoó ek toú Patrós

John 6:65
65 Kaí élegen Diá toúto eíreeka
kai\ e&legen, Dia\ tou=to ei&rhka
2532 3004 1223 5124 4483
And he said, Therefore said I

humín hóti oudeís dúnatai eltheín prós
u(mi€n o%ti ou)dei\$ du/natai e)lqei€n pro/$
5213 3754 3762 1410 2064 4314
unto you, that no man can come unto

me eán-meé eé dedoménon autoó
me e)a\n mh\ h@| dedome/non au)tw=|
3165 3362 5600 1325 846
me, except it were given unto him

ek toú Patrós
e)k tou= patro/$.
1537 <9999 > 3588 3962
of my Father.
(Interlinear Transliterated Bible.
NT:1325
didomi (did'-o-mee); a prolonged form of a primary verb (which is used as an altern. in most of the tenses); to give (used in a very wide application, properly, or by implication, literally or figuratively; greatly modified by the connection):

KJV-adventure, bestow, bring forth, commit, deliver (up), give, grant, hinder, make, minister, number, offer, have power, put, receive, set, shew, smite (+with the hand), strike (+with the palm of the hand), suffer, take, utter, yield.


John 6:65
And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father.

Except it be given him of the Father ean (NT:1437) mee (NT:3361) ee (NT:2228) dedomenon (NT:1325) autoo (NT:846) ek (NT:1537) tou (NT:3588) patros (NT:3962). Condition of third class with ean (NT:1437) mee (NT:3361) and periphrastic perfect passive subjunctive of didoomi (NT:1325). Precisely the same point as in John 6:44 where we have helkusee (NT:1670) instead of ee (NT:2228) dedomenon (NT:1325). The impulse to faith comes from God. Jesus does not expect all to believe and seems to imply that Judas did not truly believe.
(from Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1997 by Biblesoft & Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament. Copyright (c) 1985 by Broadman Press[/i]

NT:1325
didomi--
(from The Online Bible Thayer's Greek Lexicon and Brown Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon, Copyright (c)1993, Woodside Bible Fellowship, Ontario, Canada. Licensed from the Institute for Creation Research.)

1) to give
2) to give something to someone
a) used of one's own accord to give one something, to his advantage to bestow a gift
b) to grant, to give to one asking, to let have
c) to supply, to furnish necessary things
d) to give over, to deliver
1) to reach out, to extend, to present
2) used of a writing
3) to give over to one's care, to intrust, to commit
a) something to be administered
b) to give or to commit to some one something to be religiously observed
e) to give what is due or obligatory, to pay: wages or reward
f) to furnish, to endue

2) to give one to someone, to follow him as a leader and master
3) to give one to someone to care for his interests
4) to give one to someone to whom he already belonged, to return
4) to grant or permit one to commission

[ October 04, 2002, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

Nice job, Scott.

Thanks for also admitting that the Arminian idea of God is a God who cannot carry out His own will, but is instead subject to the whims of His creation; that the Arminian God is a God that could actually end up being unable to save anyone.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

Or a third option: That God is a God who chooses to allow His creation to have their own will and gives creation the power to choose Him. That God is a God who being both in and out of time was ablt to see that people would choose Him.

Why must you always make things an either/or proposition? Do you not understand that there may be several different options instead of your worst-case scenarios? How long will you continue to mischaracterize God, when at the same time you grip about Calvinists mischaracterizing your theology?

 

Masked man? I don't understand the implication. The post I'm referring to is the one about the meaning of the word "draw" (Gr. helkuo or helko). The word cannot mean "to beg" or "to plead." That is the definition you force upon it. It certainly never means "to invite" or "to accept" either. Out of curiosity does your church do the "altar call," the "sinner's prayer," or the "decision card?" The sinner's prayer seems to be the most popular way of "getting saved" in Arminian churches nowadays. I don't see how you can claim that salvation isn't hinged on you because it most certainly is in your theology, for God can do nothing unless you "invite Him into your heart." According to the Bible, God gives His people a new heart to know Him. Our heart, before regeneration, is a heart of stone. Is that what you gave God? Some gift! Oh, but I bet He was just so pleased with good little you and your "decision" to "let" Him be God. "Let God be God," or so I've heard Arminians say to sinners. Or, "Let God have His way."

"We deny the charge as unjust made by the Arminians against the wise and good Ruler of the universe. God did elect His people before the foundation of the world, long before any of them had a being, and those not elected were left out, and God is not unjust. It is blasphemy to charge a God of purity and justice with being unjust. It is a wonder that He allows His depraved creatures to live who utter such vile epithets in denouncing Him while they pretend to worship Him." - Elder John R. Daily

 

The Bible says "whom" He foreknew, not "what" He foreknew.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

As has already been noted - Cavlinism - even 5 Point Calvinism is constrained to use Arminian methods of evangelism - since Calvinism just does not work there.

You have to use the Arminian model of "God loves you Yes You my friend. And He loves your family too! HE died for You, He is calling you today! Wont you choose Christ today? you may not have another day! Today may be your last opportunity. I urge you to come forward..."

Typical - Arminian terms - heard from all effective Calvinist evangelists.

But why do they not "rather" say --

"NOTHING we do or say here today will change your fate. God alone wills it - God alone determines it. He has chosen to love ONLY the Few - though He sometimes calls that - So Loving the World.

The chances that YOU are among the FEW are slim to none. The chances that EVEN IF you are among the few - that ANY of your children are also the FEW of MAtt 7 are even slimmer.

Since nothing I say will chancge what God has willed today - one iota - lets all just relax and watch to see who God may have willed to get saved today because of Jesus Christ's Life death and resurrection".

You will note - that the up-front reliance on that Calvinist model to be born out in real life - is never seen in real life.

In Christ,

Bob

[ October 08, 2002, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

Really Loving ALL and really dying for ALL - but refusing to force ANY to submit - is viewed as failure by some

And that is the "risk" in that system that chooses to leave the "ALL" as ALL and chooses to leave the "WORLD" as World.

By contrast - note the post on page one of this thread - where God says of your child burning in hell "Sure I COULD have done something - if I had CARED to".

There is no comparison. It is night and day - hands down in favor of the Arminian view of God.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Scott, I can definitely agree with you on this statement (although I edited the "Arminian" part ).

 

Let me see where have I heard that term used before? Ah, yes. Open Theists use that term. I think they refer to their system as "The God Who Risks".

Interesting choice of terms, Bob. Very interesting.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

Only in your fantasyland, Bob.

(Isaiah 55:8-11 NKJV) "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD. {9} "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts. {10} "For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, And do not return there, But water the earth, And make it bring forth and bud, That it may give seed to the sower And bread to the eater, {11} So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

(Daniel 4:35 NKJV) All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, "What have You done?"

(Isaiah 14:24 NKJV) The LORD of hosts has sworn, saying, "Surely, as I have thought, so it shall come to pass, And as I have purposed, so it shall stand:

(Isaiah 46:9-10 NKJV) Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, {10} Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'

My God never fails, Bob. Evidently you are quite content that yours does fail. But mine does not.

"Then another difficulty comes in; not only is everything made contingent, but it does seem to us as if man were thus made to be the supreme being in the universe. According to the freewill scheme the Lord intends good, but he must win like a lackey on his own creature to know what his intention is; God willeth good and would do it, but he cannot, because he has an unwilling man who will not have God's good thing carried into effect. What do ye, sirs, but drag the Eternal from his throne, and lift up into it that fallen creature, man: for man, according to that theory nods, and his nod is destiny. You must have a destiny somewhere; it must either be as God wills or as man wills . If it be as God wills , then Jehovah sits as sovereign upon his throne of glory, and all hosts obey him, and the world is safe; if not God, then you put man there, to say. "I will" or "I will not; if I will it I will enter heaven; if I will it I will despise the grace of God; if I will it I will conquer the Holy Sprit, for I am stronger than God, and stronger than omnipotence; if I will it I will make the blood of Christ of no effect, for I am mightier than that blood, mightier than the blood of the Son of God himself; though God make his purpose, yet will I laugh at his purpose; it shall be my purpose that shall make his purpose stand, or make it fall." Why, sirs, if this be not Atheism, it is idolatry; it is putting man where God should be, and I shrink with solemn awe and horror from that doctrine which makes the grandest of God's works—the salvation of man—to be dependent upon the will of his creature whether it shall be accomplished or not. Glory I can and must in my text in its fullest sense. "It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."" - From Charles Spurgeon's sermon entitled "God's Will and Man's Will"

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ October 05, 2002, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

And isn't that the MOST important part?

[ October 06, 2002, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]