Question for Arminians

Perhaps instead of posting libelous and malicious ad hominem attacks like an apostate infidel you could post precisely what I said that you believe to be incorrect and provide data to support your reason why you believe that I am incorrect. Everything that I have posted on this message board regarding Arminian theology is solidly based upon the writings of James Arminius and the writings Arminian scholars recognized around the world for their contribution to the study of Christian theology. If you believe that you have found a specific exception in any of my posts, and have the necessary background in Arminian theology to show us where I was incorrect, please post that specific alleged exception so that we can all see it and consider the validity of you belief. Otherwise, please keep your libelous and malicious ad hominem attacks to yourself.

 

This is not AT ALL fair to Calvin. I certainly don't hold to all of what Calvin taught, but it's not fair to take a man's life work and drag it through the mud. Calvin wrote many volumes...a 22 volume commentary on the bible, plus many other books. He came along at a time in church history when we needed a careful theologian. So I humbly suggest that you read Calvin in context....(not calvinism, but Calvin himself).

Much of what has given Calvin a bad name has been his followers who took the teachings further than their mentor. Ditto with Arminius. </font>[/QUOTE]My perspective of the role of Calvin in church history and the development of Christian theology is very much different than yours. From my perspective, based upon the actual writings of Calvin, especially his commentary on Romans, his Institutes of the Christian Religion, and other writings in which he expressed his views on the atonement of Christ, he failed to see in the Scriptures the efficacy of the atonement of Christ in freeing men from their bondage to sin. Indeed, to a very substantial extent he expressly denied the efficacy of the atonement of Christ in the practical life of the believer and actively and aggressively shared that denial with many.

If that was all the damage that he did to the development of post-reformation Christian theology, I might be willing to cut the man a little bit of slack, but throughout his writings he aggressively assaulted the historical teaching of the Church regarding the sovereignty of God, the state of man before and after conversion to the Christian faith, the responsibility of the Christian to live a life free from sin, conditional election to salvation, the atonement of Christ for the benefit of all men, Biblical anthropology, the repugnance to God of all sin, and the absolute holiness of God.

Therefore, from my perspective, God raised up Martin Luther and the devil raised up John Calvin. Is this an Arminian point of view? No it is not. It is my personal point of view based upon the writings of John Calvin and the impact that they have had on the Church.

 

Amen!

 

Okay, prove it. Show us that you have the free will to be 100% obedient, 100% of the time from now until the rest of your life. If it's a choice, and you say you have the free will to make that choice, so make the choice and stick to it no matter what. I'm not just talking about actions. Remember, if you even look at a woman with lust in your heart, you will have as much as commited adultery with her, so no looking and lusting.

You don't have to worry about, that, though, because you can decide of your own free will not to feel any temptation. After all, obedience is free will, right? </font>[/QUOTE]The Bible is full of naysayers, and like the Bible, the church is full of naysayers. Should I believe the naysayers who deny of efficacy of the atonement of Christ or should I believe the Christ who atoned for my sins and set me free from sin?

John 8:31. So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine;
32. and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
33. They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
34. Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35. "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36. "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. NASB, 1995)

 

Whatever you believe, prove it with your choices. Decide of your own free will right now that you will never sin again, period. Not in thought or deed.

Ignore 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Instead, stick with the idea that you are totally set free from sin, and you can do anything of your own free will. So live it and never sin in thought or deed ever again. If you can get through the rest of your life without another sin in thought or deed, then you'll have scored a point for free will.

 

Whatever you believe, prove it with your choices. Decide of your own free will right now that you will never sin again, period. Not in thought or deed.

Ignore 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

Instead, stick with the idea that you are totally set free from sin, and you can do anything of your own free will. So live it and never sin in thought or deed ever again. If you can get through the rest of your life without another sin in thought or deed, then you'll have scored a point for free will. </font>[/QUOTE]The proof is in the Word of God—not in the lives of any given human individuals. And how sad it is that many have memorized 1 John 1.8-10 but choose to ignore what John wrote in chapter 3 of the same epistle.

1 John 3:2. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
3. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
4. Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5. You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
7. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8. the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

And how convenient it is to forget that this epistle was written to a group of people who did not believe that God had come in the flesh in the person of Jesus the Christ and who did not believe in the concept of sin rather than to a body of mature, Christian believers.

1. What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life--
2. and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us--
3. what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.
4. These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.
5. This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.
6. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
7. but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

 

I need to go to bed. Good night!

 

And yet, this is the verse that they always use in the context of salvation. That is why I quoted it, because THEY use it that way. They believe man has a sovereign free will in that it overrules the sovereignty of God in many areas. If God is at the mercy of man's choice, man's choice, by default, is sovereign. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Uh, care to explain the following??

They believe man has a sovereign free will in that it overrules the sovereignty of God

"Sovereign" =Supreme, Superior.

How can "Two" wills be "sovereign" in the same arena, they can't???

Our Federal Government has "Sovereignty" in certain areas and State Government possesses Sovereignty in certain area,

And the federal must "approve" all "request" from the states before they can "enter" the "domain" of the Federal's "Sovereignty".

Best examine the "foundation" on which your belief is based.

 

My point is exactly that two wills can't be sovereign. Free-willers (that's what I think I'll call them from now on instead of Arminians), suggest that God is sovereign over everything EXCEPT man's choices. True, they admit that He could be if He wanted to, but He decided not to be, thus, in their minds, protectin His sovereignty. Man's free will is sovereign over His choices in that God is not allowed to override it.

This is what I say is unbiblical. God is sovereign over absolutely everything. </font>[/QUOTE]Jas 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God.


Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

IF God is sovereign, then why does man have the "sovereign will" to obey/disobey God's commandments,

and why would man have to "SUBMIT" "Man's sovereign will" to "God's sovereign will"???

Your "example" above omits the "FACT" that "NO MAN" comes to the father except by Jesus, and "NO MAN" gets to Jesus EXCEPT... BY FAITH.

God's "sovereign will" NEVER operates "Outside" the "plan of salvation" through FAITH in JESUS.

Now how/why was they "washed clean"??


Calvin contradicts scripture in every arena.

 

(And yet, this is the verse that they always use in the context of salvation. That is why I quoted it, because THEY use it that way. They believe man has a sovereign free will in that it overrules the sovereignty of God in many areas. If God is at the mercy of man's choice, man's choice, by default, is sovereign. )

If you are going to speak to what "they" believe then be sure you are correct. Those of us who believe in freewill do not believe that that freewill overides gods soveriegnty. But believe that Gods soveriegnty and freewill as provided to us by God are not diabolically apposed. But God works his soveriegn will in the midst of our freewill which he provided us.

 

Gods soveriegnty doesnt mean that he controls every little move like a puppet. Gods soveriegnty means he is in control in the midst of our freewill.

My children which are 5,6, and 8 go through their day making decisions for themselves. They chooose what game they are playing, to play or to read, even to choose which item to eat next on their plate.

But I am their Father and I am still in control in the midst of their personal choices. I watch and protect them from harm, and work to guide them to make decisions that are good for them. Sometimes I have to lay down the law. But while I give them choices for themselves I remain in control.

Having no freewill does not allow for growth. It would keep us imature not being able to make decisions for ourself. I give my children some room to make some decisions for themselves based on their age so that they grow mentally and mature. I could take that away from them but that is not to their greatest good in the end.

Why did Paul write to the Corinthians? In Ch 3 he says you are imature. And it is because there is division in the church. Which is from false teachings. You have chosen to follow these false teachers. They were believers and they had made a choice to follow false teachers.

How does choosing to sin or not to sin speak against freewill? Are you implying that Satan is soveriegn? Are you saying that we have no choice but to sin?

Or are you saying that the elect sins no more?

 

YES, but God calls, and we can either "SUBMIT/YIELD" to his will or keep following the "Will of the flesh",

this "CHOICE" is what Calvin denies as being "offered" to "ALL MEN".

We're saved by "FAITH" in Jesus, "belief/unbelief", and it comes "BEFORE" God's "GRACE" to "regenerate" or leave us in sin.

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield (submit) yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: (CALL) if any man hear my voice, and open the door, (submit/yield) I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. (obedience unto righteousness)

IF man doesn't open the door, "sin unto death".

 

The proof is in the Word of God—not in the lives of any given human individuals. And how sad it is that many have memorized 1 John 1.8-10 but choose to ignore what John wrote in chapter 3 of the same epistle.

1 John 3:2. Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.
3. And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
4. Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.</font>[/QUOTE]You don't see the distinction between the verses, obviously. I don't see how you can ignore the distinction because John would be contradicting himself otherwise. "Everyone who practices sin." The Greek tense is like "sins continually". There's a difference between commiting a sin and practicing it.

My point is simply that if you believe obedience is free will, then prove it by exercising your free will never to sin ever again, in thought or in deed. That's the power of free will that you have, right? I don't mean "stop practicing sin" I mean "decide to never sin again, in thought or in deed". Prove that you have free will by exercising it to accomplish this.

You can quote me scripture on end - I can quote you scripture on end, too. I'm saying the proof is in the pudding. If you really believe that obedience is a matter of free will, then exercise your free will to be perfect. Then get back to me and tell me that obedience is free will. Otherwise the statement "obedience is free will" is nothing more than hot air.

 

By the way, there's also the small matter of the fact that if obedience is free will, then Christ died in vain. There's no point in dying for our sins if we have the free will to be able to decide not to commit any.