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Palestinians were pushed out of their homes

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Wester, Jan 23, 2002.

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  1. Wester

    Wester Guest

    I notice a thread started by Helen which apparently is very much pro Israel. I have great respect and admiration for Israelis and Jews in general. Nevertheless, it should not be forgotten that in order to establish a homeland for the Jews, many thousands of natives of Palestine were pushed out of their homes when Israel was created. The U.S. should pursue and even handed policy in dealing with the Arabs and the Jews. I am sure that God does not condone pushing people out of their homes for any reason.
     
    #1 Wester, Jan 23, 2002
  2. MarciontheModerateBaptist

    MarciontheModerateBaptist New Member

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    Agreed, Wester. That is why we cannot accept portions of the OT - because it portrays a God who pushed people out of their homelands for the benefit of the Jews. But we know that God is a God who is against any form of violence (Is. 1:11,17).

    Daniel Payne
     
    #2 MarciontheModerateBaptist, Jan 23, 2002
  3. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    The Ottoman Empire controlled all of Palestine from 1500 until defeated in WWI. Sporadic and scattered Jewish settlement and ownership of the WORST land (swamps north of Galilee; sand dunes along the coast).

    Because of the Jewish soldier's efforts in fighting Germany/Austria/Ottoman the Balfour Declaration stated that England, which was given a Mandate by the League of Nations to govern the region, would give the Jews a homeland.

    At the same time, they took 75% of Palestine and started an Arab nation called Trans-Jordan. In 1948, the U.N. opted to allow the Jews to form their own state, but only in about 30% of what was LEFT (8% of all of Palestine).

    May 1948 five Arab nations declared war on this tiny 8% of the land nation of Israel. In a year, Israel had gained another 4% of the Promised Land.

    Israel remained in that 1/8th of the Land until 1967 when she was again invaded. This time the Jews took all of the Land west of the Jordan and a few mile buffer zone on the Golan Heights. This expanded Israel to about 25% of the Land.

    Now, I'm a history prof, not a math teacher. But Arabs hold 75%+ of the Land and Jews (allowing Arabs to live and vote in Israel) hold less than 25%. And now the "Palestinians" want MORE? I am incredulous.

    Remove this from Jews/Arabs and any Bible significance. Just from the standpoint of history, there has never been a parallel for this request of Arafat et al. It is not just and not correct.

    Arabs that voluntarilly left their homes in 1948 or 1967 ASSUMED the powerful Arab legions would get them back. Instead, they are still crowded into sub-human camps in these neighboring Arab lands.

    They are simply waiting for the next war, or the next or the next, until the Jews are driven into the sea. The mindset has moved from battlefield to negotiations, but the hatred is still there.
     
    #3 Dr. Bob, Jan 23, 2002
  4. Barnabas H.

    Barnabas H. <b>Oldtimer</b>

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    Thanks for the history lesson Dr. Griffin! The liberal media would never acknowledge that. It is not politically correct, they would say. ;)
     
    #4 Barnabas H., Jan 24, 2002
  5. Bro. Curtis

    Bro. Curtis <img src =/curtis.gif>
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    Yes, Thank you Dr. Bob. I will NOT disregard any part of the Bible, O.T. or New.

    That war has been going on since before Moses said "let my people go". It will end when God ends it, IMHO.
     
    #5 Bro. Curtis, Jan 24, 2002
  6. Wester

    Wester Guest

    A previous message stated that because there is still plenty of Arab land left in Palestine, everything is O.K. If you use the same sort of logic, an Arab could push you out of your home, on whatever street you live, and you would have to accept it because, after all, the Arab took far less than 1 percent of the land in the United States. That does not compute. In order to establish present day Israel, thousands of arab refugees were created. Fundamentalist christians are apparently willing to ignore that fact and say that the Palestinians are merely terrorists. If someone did that to you, you gun toting christians would be banging away and complaining mightily about how your rights were violated.
     
    #6 Wester, Jan 24, 2002
  7. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    "gun-toting Christians"???? I've never owned one in my life and I don't intend to start now! Methinks you are trying to foist off a stereotype of some kind here?

    And I presume that means you are not a Christian? Or are you gun-toting?

    Never mind...

    Getting back to the subject, you forget that Israel is the ancient home of the Jewish people. They have no other. Israel was formed by an international consensus, not because either Jews or Christians demanded it.

    It's not like they were given the entire Arabian peninsula! It's not even like they were given any oil fields. The only reason that the other people are so against them is simply because they exist. And their existence is an affront to the Arab world precisely because of something God said through the prophet Isaiah a long time ago:

    The Lord will have compassion on Jacob;
    once aain he will choose Israel
    and will settle them in their own land.
    Aliens will join them and unite with the house of Jacob.
    Nations will take them and bring them to their own place.[/i
    Isaiah 14:1-2a

    and then there is this:
    But you, O Israel, my servant,
    Jacob, whom I have chosen,
    you descendants of Abraham my friend,
    I took you from the ends of the earth,
    from its farthest corners I called you.
    I said, "You are my servant";
    I have chosen you and have not rejected you.
    So do not fear, for I am with you;
    do not be dismayed, for I am your God.
    I will strengthen you and help you;
    I will uphold you with my righteous right hand.
    All who rage against you
    will surely be ashamed and disgraced;
    those who oppose you
    will be as nothing and perish.
    Isaiah 41:8-11

    Perhaps it is THIS which makes the Arabs so angry? Perhaps it is not really, underneath everything, the land?
     
    #7 Helen, Jan 24, 2002
  8. David Cooke Jr

    David Cooke Jr New Member

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    Great post on this Dr. Griffin! [​IMG]
     
    #8 David Cooke Jr, Jan 24, 2002
  9. Wester

    Wester Guest

    Palestine was given to the Jews, in recent history, using methods approximately equivalent to the methods used by the United States in acquiring lands of the American Indians. These methods will not stand up to close scrutiny by anyone intested in justice and fairness. Alexis De Toqueville wrote in a sarcastic way about how the U.S. government destroyed the American Indians with some regard to legality. In a nutshell, the method was to get a few Indians on our side by buying them off and then to use their signatures to put a legal cover over the stealing of Indian lands. Britian did approximately the same thing in Palestine. The Jews that were there "encouraged" some Arabs to leave by killing a considerable number. I don't think that this sort of process has the approval of God.
     
    #9 Wester, Jan 24, 2002
  10. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    LOL,
    I don't think MOST of the mid-east 'processes' are godly!

    Nevertheless, God will use them.

    Neither side is innocent of wrongdoing. None of us are. Nevertheless, the Jews have a right to the land of their heritage.
     
    #10 Helen, Jan 24, 2002
  11. Will

    Will New Member

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    Wester,

    I'm just curious, have you studied the history of the middle east at all? Are you familiar with how the British divided up the pieces of the Ottoman Empire after WWI? There were inequities galore that exist to this day. If you are familiar then why are you so concerned about Israel when the region is viewed in totality?

    Now I admit that I am somewhat prejudiced in this subject as my wife's family came from what is now Iraq. They lived in a Christian village. When the Jewish settlers started moving back to Israel, the Muslim authorities came to their village and rounded up all of the men and boys. They asked them if they wanted to convert to Islam. If the answer was no then they were machine gunned into a ditch. My wife's Grandfather was gunned into such a ditch. Wounded, he acted like he was dead as he lay among the dead and dying men and boys. He was able to escape as were most of my wife's family. Their tribe however lost upwards of 1,000,000 people in the purge as well as lost the villages they had lived in for over 2,000 years.

    If you believe that the Jewish people could have a peaceful homeland without their own secure borders, you understand history differently then I do.
     
    #11 Will, Jan 25, 2002
  12. Wester

    Wester Guest

    Will,

    You can't use one injustice to justify another injustice. I know that the world is full of injustice. But my point is that Americans have a tendency to automatically side with Israel without thinking much about the situation. It is not correct to say that the Palestinians do not have a legitimate complaint. But that is what we often hear.

    You say that Israel cannot be secure without having their own defended borders. I agreee. But at the same time, a real resolution to the situation will not take place until there is substantial recognition that the Palestinians have been wronged and some provision is made to right that wrong. You take it for granted that Israel has a right to live there. Actually, there is no legal system in the world that recognizes the rights of descendents to land that their ancestors owned 3,000 years ago, if it is not continuously occupied. See if you have any right to land that your ancestors owned that long ago. I contend that the Jews did not have the right to push the Palestinians out of their land in the last century. But now it is done, and cannot very well be undone. Still a solution should deal with the injustice that has been done.

    [ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: Wester ]
     
    #12 Wester, Jan 25, 2002
  13. Brutus

    Brutus Member
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    Webster;I realize that it has been some time since there has been any activity here but I was wondering if you have taken this matter up with God? After all they are indeed His chosen people,so why argue with those who have no say in the situation?Take it to the source=God
     
    #13 Brutus, Feb 12, 2002
  14. Barnabas H.

    Barnabas H. <b>Oldtimer</b>

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    Amen to that Brutus! [​IMG]
     
    #14 Barnabas H., Feb 12, 2002
  15. lidia

    lidia Guest

    Brutus,

    How much involvement by God are you suggesting occurs in Palestine? Was God responsible for the massacre of palestinians, as took place in 1982 under the watchful eyes of Israel? Are your saying the the U.S. should automatically support Israel because that is God's will? Do you think American foreign policy should be influenced by your interpretation of the bible? American leaders must make decisions on various issues involving the middle east. Whose version of biblical interpretation should they use? I am sure you agree that there is more than one interpretation of what the bible says with respect to Israel.
     
    #15 lidia, Feb 12, 2002
  16. Jamal5000

    Jamal5000 New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wester:
    I am sure that God does not condone pushing people out of their homes for any reason.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I think condones pushing people out o their homes only if it creates a more genuine relationship with Him through His Son. As pessimistic as this sounds, such a circumstance may serve as a training period.

    [​IMG]
     
    #16 Jamal5000, Feb 23, 2002
  17. Australian Baptist Student

    Australian Baptist Student New Member

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    The idea that the Palestinians were tossed out of their homes by the Israelis needs some elaboration. From about 1880 to 1947 groups of Jews returned to the land of Israel which was either under Ottoman or British rule. What land these Jews built on and farmed was bought legally. As numbers of Jews increased, and local Arab opposition grew, a number of compromises were suggested. The Peel Commission, an American plan and finnally a UN Partition Plan. Every compromise was accepted by the Jewish community, and rejected by the Palestinian leadership. Had any one of these compromises been accepted by the Palestinians, no one would have been forced from their homes. After the Palestinians rejected the UN plan, they initiated a war to wipe the Jews out. This included cutting water and electricity to Jewish Jerusalem, and blockading the road so that the Jewish civillians would be starved out. For the first 2 stages of that war. the Jewish forces were on the defensive, and at the end of them, controlled very little land. A Red Cross ceasefire was then implimented, and when it was drawing to a close, the Israelis, even though they now possesed new weapons and little land, agreed to extend the ceasefire, which could have turned into a permanent arrangement. The Arab forces rejected this, and attacked the remaining Jewish positions. It was in this stage that the Palestinian refugees were created. Since the Israelis accepted every compromise, even when they were not in its favor, and the Arabs rejected every one, the Israelis can hardly be blamed for the refugees which resulted.
     
    #17 Australian Baptist Student, Mar 16, 2002
  18. Kiffin

    Kiffin New Member

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    The fact is if Israel wanted to they could annihlate the Palestians in probably less than a week. They do not however because they are the good guys in this conflict. They are the only true democracy in the region and are surrounded by states that sponsor terrorism. If the roles were reversed I doubt the Arabs would show such restraint.
     
    #18 Kiffin, Mar 16, 2002
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