"Is it ever right to do wrong?"

Amein, amein, and amein, John!!! I agreee with
everything you said, not that this would really
matter to you, because you have already shown
yourself to be one of integrity.

The only thing I would say is that I believe that it
was Corrie's sister who said they were under the
table. Ten Boom, throughout the years of her
writings bemoaned the fact that she had lied,
and she believed it was her very lie that brought
them to the prison camp where her father and
sister died, while it was her sister's trust in our
God which led her to tell the truth and keep
their chharges from an earlier destruction.

There is a book out by Diane M. Komp, M.D.,
called [anatomy of a lie]: the truth about lies
and why good people tell them. I would
highly recommend this book for any believer
struggling with this issue. It was published in
1998 by Zondervan.

Komp broaches the problem of ten Boom's lie,
how she felt about it, and the apparent result.
Komp, herself a believer, had a problem telling
the truth at times as a physicain and educator.
Finally realizing that she needed to face this
problem, she began to study and pray, as well
as bring others into her fight to learn Truth.

I was taught, by my mother, to lie, so this, and
other areas of integrity, has been my pursuit
since 1984. There are areas in which people--
Good Ppeople--lie and do not even realize it.
I set my mind to learn the areas in which I was
dishonest and give them to our God, seeking
absolute honesty in word, thought, and action.
I think I am there, but I have thought that before.
8o)

Tthank you for your thought-provoking post! I
appreciate it.

 

John3v36, I really liked your post a lot but let me pose a challenge to your theory.

Peter did wrong by escaping from prison if looked at from man's law. It was an act that was punishable by death if I remember correctly. Further the "Angel" that opened the prison door did wrong also (aiding in an escape of a prisoner) Peter further violated the laws by continuing to preach the word as did the other apostles.

It seems that you have contradicted yourself by first saying it is never right to do wrong, then you qualified wrong as only that which is a God Created Law. And if that is the case how can you support that theory if Romans 13 tells us that man's law is Gods law.

 

Post-It --

Since I fully backed the first post, may I answer
your question? Well, I did not hear a "yes,"
but . . .

If our Lord Himself sent an angel to release you
from prison, would you stay in your cell and tell
the anged, "I can't go, because this country's
law says I cannot?" I know that this is a very
simple answer, but it really covers Peter's situ-
ation whether he was an angel when the doors
opened or did not. It is never wrong to do what
our God provides for us to do.

[ August 02, 2002, 10:58 AM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]

 

No, no, no... You lie to the Nazi

Why? Because it is the same as helping the cow out of the ditch. Helping the cow is technically work on the Sabbath thereby breaking the law, but as was earlier pointed out, some laws override others in certain situations. Helping the Jews is more important than not telling the truth.

We are not to lie, but we certainly are not to turn innocents over to evil men either. The authorities were looking for Peter, but nobody turned them in. That was a deception in and of itself, was it not? Sure it was. But protecting them overrides the law against lying.

Having said that, I most certainly do not deny that God will save anyone He good and well please however He wants, but God could take cows out of ditches if He wanted to as well. Nevertheless, God told us to take the cow out of the ditch… maybe just maybe that’s how God saved the cow.

Remind me of a story I once heard about a man that was caught in a flood. The waters kept rising and rising until they were up into his house. A rescue boat came by but he turned it down saying that God would save him. The waters rose more and he hand to get atop his roof. A helicopter came by but he refused to get in saying that God would rescue him. The flood finally rose higher and drowned him. He went to heaven asking God why he didn’t save him to which God replied, “Well, I sent a boat and a helicopter. What else did you want?”

I am not saying that we should lie to little old ladies about how pretty their hats are, but when push comes to shove, we should be wise enough to know which laws are more important.

~Jarlaxle

 

I would just like to comment that your 'story' is completely useless here.

The reason is the man on the roof was not being pursuaded to do something wrong. He was given an offer to do something completely legal (unless getting in a boat or a helicopter is illegal where you are). The question raised suggests a situation where the choice is either lie and protect those you personally feel need protecting or tell the truth and let God sort it out.

Besides (interesting twist) maybe God doesn't want those jews under the table to be spared. Maybe they need to go to a prison camp to realize their sinful state and accept Christ as messiah. We can't claim to know his ways.

As for the peter thing and Romans 13:1 -
my take is that God is the author of the law and authority so if he decides to override any human being, He can. And clearly He did when He led Peter out by an angel.

SoCM

 

The story completely points out that God does not always work with miraculous power, i.e. teleporting the man out of the flood, giving the cow the power needed to get itself out of the ditch, or causing the German to not look under the table. God sometimes tells you to get the cow out of the ditch regardless of whether it breaks a law or not. Pointing out something about my story that does not apply is what is useless.

[ August 02, 2002, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: Jarlaxle ]

 

Jarlaxle, the "Jew under the table" scenario reminds me of one I've heard before. Are you by chance a reader of Bob Enyart's material?

I humbly submit to all that there is one more option to the "Jew under the table" scenario that no one ever seems to offer: When asked by the Nazi, say nothing. And if the Jew is discovered by the Nazi, go with the Jew.

There are those that say you should lie; I say no. If God has placed the Jew in your care, then you have become a steward of something that God has given you. You should protect it to the best of your ability, but you should never compromise your Christianity to do so.

Does that mean killing the Nazi? I would fight for and yes, kill, anyone threatening my wife and children, because God has made me a steward of them; so I believe the same goes for the Jew that had been placed in my care.

But I ascribe to what was posted here already from the apostle Paul, along with specific instructions from that same man: "Provide things honest in the sight of all men." "Provide for honest things, not only in the sight of the Lord, but also in the sight of men."

You want to lie? Go ahead. It's your choice. But when it comes time to tell the truth, how will people know?

 

I would trust that man that lied to save my brother before I would trust the man that didn't and therefore let him be killed.

 

But you didn't answer the option I presented, now did you?

Would you trust me? Because I would go to the prison camp, and yes, even the gas chambers with that Jew. That Nazi would have to shoot me or take me, too. I would not point out the Jew, but I would not lie, either.

You also didn't answer my question about Bob Enyart....

[ August 02, 2002, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: Don ]

 

I'll wait until tomorrow for an answer....

 

Following your logic, the abortion clinic bomber is justified if God's angels provides him the bomb and success in carring it out.

 

Daniel 1:7, eh doc ?

Hananiah: the Lord has graciously given

Azariah: God has helped

Misheal: Request, entreaty

Thank you for making me look that up. I learned something tonite.

 

Following your logic, the abortion clinic bomber is justified if God's angels provides him the bomb and success in carring it out.[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]However, using your logic God doesn't establish right and wrong... human reason does. Who does this make sovereign? Who does this enthrone as God?

 

Is is right to do wrong in order to preserve a life? Corrie ten Boom certainly had a way of "cloaking" the truth to those Nazis storming into the house! Miss Ten Boom is one of my heroans(I believe I got that word right. A female hero!)

She didn't have a problem of "bold-faced" lieing in order to preserve a life. It seems I read in one of her books that after her release, she returned to Holland and found it still occupied by the Nazis. She questioned returning back to the "underground"--seriously considered returning--until the day that an underground agent asked her to "do away" with a man that was "getting in the way" of the resistance! She explained in her book that she would lie, cheat, steal in order to preserve life but that she had to stop short of killing someone.

Would I harbor a Jew under those conditions and never condition myself to do what she, Betsie,
and her father, Casper did? The big question was--where was the rest of Holland when Corrie was telling those "bold-faced" lies!

And another big question today is--would ole Blackbird(a white man) go "Underground" to help a Jew, or a black man or anyone else if someone else rose against them? We have an expression here that says, "In a New York second" I would! I would condition myself to telling a bold face lie to those I needed to tell that lie to and then when the smoke is finally cleared--and the last shot has been fired--just like ole Miss Ten Boom--I'd then recondition myself to telling the truth!

 

Post-it --

I am sorry, but your note to me was . . . uh . . . .
Well, I'll tell you what: if an angel of the Lord
hands you a bomb and tells you to bomb an
abotion clinic, check the angel's credentials.
That angel may be appearing as an angel of
light, but . . . .

8o)

Blackbird --

When Corrie ten Boom wrote her first books,
she was relaying facts. And the fact is that ten
Boom, in her later books, regretted her lies and
told why.

Ten Boom is one of my heroes, but not because
she lied. She is my hero because when she
went through the "fire," she learned from it,
rather than wallowing in self-pity, and she
taught others from those experiences. One of
the things she wrote time and time again was
her regret for lying and how much better she
believed things would have been if she had
told the truth as her sister did.

And may I add that there were many in Holland,
and other countries, who also hid the Jews.
Corrrie ten Boom is just one of those whho hap-
pened to write about it.

[ August 03, 2002, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]

 

Well, it's tomorrow, well into the morning, and Jarlaxle hasn't answered either of my questions.

Conclusions:
1) He/she is busy;
2) I was right that he/she hadn't considered any other option than the one he/she had presented; and I was also correct that they're a reader/supporter of Bob Enyart.

Either way, I'll give it a couple of more days....

 

The solution is actually very simple.

One need only ask the Lord to enable them to always tell the truth. He will honor that request.

Though the Christian may be tempted to lie God will always provide a way of escape.

 

So your criteria for determination whether or not the Angel is from God or not is that a holy Angel would not ask you to do something Illegal? You have just presented a case that Peter should not have listen to the Angel that opened the prison door.

The whole Peter thing not committing sin in this case is a real problem. If we do what an Angel tells us or what we think is God telling our hearts to do, and it violates what is right according to man’s law or the majority’s opinion, it is suddenly justified. Unfortunately this is the same defense an Abortion clinic bomber is going to rely on. despite what man's law says, he will see that he did what he was told to do by God or Angel. And who are we to judge him right or wrong anymore than we can judge that Peter did wrong by escaping prison. What if a greater good came from the bombing? What if it was God’s will? God has sent many people to death with his commands.

Romans: 13 is the only way out of this and many problems created by poor interpretation or ambiguous scripture on this subject. It is wrong to bomb abortion clinics and it is wrong to break out of jail when angels or anyone opens the door. If God didn't really want Peter in jail he never would have sent him there. The fact that he allowed it and then confused issues of right and wrong by further allowing his escape seems a little too much to believe. I rest on the fact that Peter escaped or left based on FEAR, not on a supposed angel.

He reported the person who opened the door as an angel in Biblical text so while the Bible is not compromised by his action, Peter himself is shown clearly to still be only human and able to make mistakes and continue in sin despite thinking to the contrary. I’m not sure why people today think that the Apostles were somehow incapable of committing sin. Even Paul admitted to it.