"Is it ever right to do wrong?"

One need only ask the Lord to enable them to always tell the truth. He will honor that request.</font>[/QUOTE]Well not really, These are instructions that we should believe in, not count on 100%. Big difference. We are to "demonstrate" our Faith in God by following these verses. It doesn't me we get what we ask for.

In the same light don't count on knowing what is right or wrong from God just because you ask him. He gave us a way of knowing what is right and what is wrong in Romans 13, we must go by the State Laws in which we live. God mandated we do so.

[ August 03, 2002, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

Well not really, These are instructions that we should believe in, not count on 100%. Big difference. We are to "demonstrate" our Faith in God by following these verses. It doesn't me we get what we ask for. </font>[/QUOTE] No. But God will always answer the prayers of the faithful... and sometimes the answer is "tell the truth and be martyred for My Glory." You are still placing man at the center. All is to be for God's glory and He commands that we do not lie.

That said, there is also a place for resisting an ungodly government. When a government suppresses the spreading of the gospel or the practice of Christianity, it should be resisted but within the moral principles of the Bible. The early Christians certainly proved how this was to be done. Even their enemies acknowledge their strict adherence to their moral principles in the face of persecution.

Not suprisingly, you have ripped this scripture out of its context. Verses 3 and 4 make it clear that the authorities that God is commanding that we respect ar those which enforce good behaviour and social order. Certainly Christ example makes it clear that you have stretched this passage completely out of its proper application.

 

You know, Post-it, I don't come here to argue
either Scripture or ethics. I thought your post
to me was written in jest, and I treated it thus in
my response, with the addition of the little
smiley-face at the bottom.

I do not inntend to argue with you. I take no
pride nor joy in wreaking havvock on bullletin
boards with people I don't even know--
especially believers.

If you must read any response from me, let it
simply be this: the murder of abortionists is
joining them in their own devilish agenda--
murder. This is all I have to say.

 

How 'bout them midwives?

[ August 03, 2002, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound like an argument, I was just responding to what you said in your post.

When we put something up on a post and someone else gives us a different way of looking at something, we can grow... maybe. If everyone agrees with everything we post, we remain the same.

If you make a comment on a public board such as this one, you have to expect that someone can disagree with you and tell you why. I get it all the time and it has helped me grow. For instance, 2 months ago, I was in favor of allowing abortion all the way through to birth, now I only believe that it is allowable after the first 2 trimesters. It was my being criticized by others here that got me this far on that subject. I want to believe that it shouldn't be allowed at all and who knows, maybe someone will hit a chord I can work with.

I truly listen and try to understand my critics but I hope that others will consider my views too. Sometimes I post things that I don't agree personally with, but it seems to be a logical truth.

Anyway, I'm a really nice guy that likes to examine scripture and our beliefs under a microscope and can sound too anal sometimes. Sorry!

 

Would I lie to preserve the life of another human being? Yes, I would! Not a word will be scratched from my above post!

 

So Blackbird, how about my response? That I wouldn't lie? But that I wouldn't freely offer anything, either? And if the individual were discovered, I wouldn't willingly allow him/her to be taken from my house, and would even go to the concentration camp and the gas chambers with him/her?

 

Post-it --

Thank you. I understand. The trouble with me is
that I come here for the peace that exists here,
because I avoid most controversian subjects--
most, not all. I go to another website which
seems to thrive on controversy and bickering,
and that is all right, because that is what I ex-
pect there, and I learn from it. But here, there
is a different type of learning for me, and I just
enjoy it. 8o)

At the other site, amidst all the expected bick-
ering, they walked me through part of my initial
acceptance of a major change in my personal
theology following being kicked out of a church;
here, I am furthering my learning. I just want
to learn in a peaceful environment here. That
is not your fault. 8o)

And please understand that I am not putting the
other site down--they fulfill a valuable purpose.

 

Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. -Matthew 22:29

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. -John 14:13-14

And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. -John 16:23-24

And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. -I John 3:22

And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him. -I John 5:14-15

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. -James 1:5

Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. -James 4:3

Do not err, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. -James 1:16-17

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. -John 8:31-32

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. -John 16:13

Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. -John 17:17

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. -I John 2:27

This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. -I John 5:6

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward. Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults. Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. -Psalms 19:1-14

 

Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. -Matthew 22:29

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. -John 14:13-14

And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. -John 16:23-24

And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. -I John 3:22

And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us: And if we know that he hear us, whatsoever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we desired of him. -I John 5:14-15

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. -James 1:5

Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts. -James 4:3

Do not err, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. -James 1:16-17

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. -John 8:31-32

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. -John 16:13

Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. -John 17:17

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. -I John 2:27

This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. -I John 5:6

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward. Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults. Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression. Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. -Psalms 19:1-14</font>[/QUOTE]My Bible says the same thing...so your point is????

 

Well, we know exactly where you stand...

You place the temporal life of a human at greater value than obedience to the eternal will of God. I agree with Don. You don't have to lie... you don't have to say anything. Perhaps prayer would be a good option. Of course, it requires a great deal of faith to be obedient when the potential costs are high... but then again Christ's example shows that there is no price too high.

 

Someone once said that the silent lie was the most wicked of all lies. Food for thought.

 

Would an example of their strict adherence to moral principles include prison breaks? Talk about giving "an appearance" of evil.

 

Post, which prison break would that be?

 

That would be found in Acts 12. When Peter broke out of prison. However, this is just one situation that is documented, to contrast this, Paul and Silas when confronted with the same situation refused to escape prison, despite the fact that God, again opened the prison doors and unchained them all.

I think that it is a shame that Peter was allowed to make his escape look like an acceptable act because it causes most Christians to think that breaking the law is ok if it is for Godly reasons. But the whole matter is further complicated by Paul and Silas breaking the law in their teachings and sneaking in and out of cities. This presents mixed messages to our brothers and sisters.

For these type acts to be acceptable in God's eyes, then what stops a Christian woman from divorcing her Christian husband because she found a more holy person and of she claims God must have made this union happen, etc, etc. A person can do a million wrong things because it is easy to point to God as the source or excuse.

Something must be right or it is wrong, period. We must realize that the Apostles did wrong all the time, it doesn't make it right by their excuses. The fine line is that their sin as our sin which we continue in, is forgiven. But some sin must be done, such as Paul's and Silas'. As Peter said in Acts15:10 "Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
11 "But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are."

This verse make the whole book of Acts come back into a state of Holy Justification and understanding. We believers can sin if it is something we "feel" we must do for the greater good of ourselves or others. Peter felt he had to escape prison and did it. All the Apostles felt they needed to break the law by preaching the word and did it. They place only a few "must not" laws on the Gentiles and all other sin should be considered null and void as long as they seek Christ in their life, then no sin exists but those few.

 

Amen Brother Bob.

 

My point is best expressed in the first verse I presented.

You claimed:

That claim is unfounded. I have hertofore presented nine passages from the Word of God containing promisses regarding the prayer of the believer. All of these promisses are stated as 100% reliable. You have no Scriptural support for your claim to the contrary. Thus I believe that you have erred not knowing the Scriptures.

Can God not give us what we ask for?

Yes, God is quite capable of giving us what we ask for. Thus I believe that you have erred not knowing the power of God.

By the way, I don't think that Peter was imprisoned legaly in Acts 12. According to both Roman law and Jewish law, Peter's arrest was an illegal act on the part of Herod.

 

I can certainly see where you think that is what those verses say, but what a verse says and what it really means are sometimes different. As in this case.

You also somehow twisted my statement. I never said God isn't capable of doing whatever we asked, I said he won't do whatever we ask in many cases.

So now that you have gone in two different directions can you tell me what you think these verses mean? If it is the latter, then I could go alone with you. If you claim that it meant, ask whatever you will, because God is capable of fulfilling it, but may not at his decision. Is that what you meant? Then I will agree with you.

 

I see no reason why these verses, or any other verses that I have quoted in this discussion, should not be taken as litteral promises. If you disagree with the plain reading of Scripture, you must provide a Scriptural basis for that disagreement. Why do you claim that these promises cannot be counted on 100%?