"Is it ever right to do wrong?"

Would an example of their strict adherence to moral principles include prison breaks? Talk about giving "an appearance" of evil.</font>[/QUOTE]No. I would not agree that escaping from the hold of an oppressor is evil or sinful or even appears evil. I didn't read where you answered my argument against the way you misused the scripture concerning civil authorities either.

 

Someone once said that the silent lie was the most wicked of all lies. Food for thought.[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]...and almost assuredly they were talking about purposefully allowing someone to believe something untrue as opposed to the significantly distinct act of refusing to answer questions.

We guarantee the accused the right to not make incriminating statements. They don't become liars when asked questions they refuse to answer or would you say that they do?

 

Jarlaxle has been strangely missing this weekend....

 

I want to assure all the people present that should they be hidden in my home and terrorists of another extreme religion should come and ask if they were in my house I would lie for their lives. I'm very sorry if this offends some of them but I'd do it anyway.

Furthermore, I would not feel guilty. I would feel that I had done the right thing.

 

Paul, I notice you use the word "feel" twice in how you see and act toward your anticipated future sin. You in essence have refused to turn from sin and plan on sinning because of the way you feel instead of what scripture says.

I mentioned this earlier a few posts back. While this sounds like it is in conflict with scripture, it isn't when have God's law written on our heart. So can God tells one person that it is wrong to do X and another that it is right? If we do what our heart tells us to do, how can anything be sin if a person truly believes it is not. This is further complicated by having the Bible tell us something is a sin and we shouldn't be doing it. So how can all these different views be melded into a rule that we can trust that a given action is wrong? It must be wrong according to the Bible, it must be wrong according to our heart and it must be wrong according to the State Law. If any two of these agree that it is wrong, consider it wrong. Otherwise, there is Biblical support to claim it may not be.



Here is another way of looking at it.
In regards to Christians only...
We start with the following premises and determine if they are or are not supported by scripture:
1. We can do no wrong:
2. We only do wrong:
3. We can do wrong but it isn't held against us:
4. We can do wrong and it is only sometimes held against us:
5. We can't do wrong if we feel we are doing right:
6. We can do wrong if we feel that we are doing a greater good or what God wants:

Only 1 and 2 can't be supported by scripture. 3-6 can be supported.

Therefore, it can be right to do wrong in certain situation.

[ August 06, 2002, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

This thread's question falls under what is called "Situation Ethics." When is it right to do wrong? When is it right to tell a lie and withhold the truth?

Some say, "Never! We should always tell the truth. We should never lie! We must never withhold the truth!"

But there are situations which may arise that we can't say, "Never!" to.

Let's just say you rob a bank. But you are also a good friend of mine. And I'm sitting there knowing you did it. The police come to me and start quizzing me--probing my mind to see if I know you did it and where your "whereabouts" may be! What would I say? I'd say, "Sucker, you goin' to jail!" "Officer! He's right over there!" For me to withhold evidense of a crime would be lieing and would be called "coming to the aid of a fugitive of the law." If I know you did it--I wouldn't lie! I'd turn you in before my heart beat two times in a row!

But on the other hand--lets just say you are a Jew and its wartime Europe all over again! The Gestapo is hunting you down like a dog! You've done absolutely nothing wrong. You are hunted because you EXIST and they want to make an EXIT out of you! But I feel led to have compassion. I'm a Christian and I make a decision to give you "Safe Harbour" knowing if I'm caught--it would mean a neat little bullet hole in the base of the skull for me(usually done in the presense of my children and wife!) But I tell myself, "It would be against God's will NOT to help you! It would be a sin against God to NOT render aid and assistance.

So I get involved. A disregard of the safety of myself and my family to get you out of enemy territory. I will passionately seek to preserve your life so that you can continue to see "tomorrow!" I've got to get ration cards for you. I've got to make telephone calls. I've got to make further contacts. But the snooping Gestapo comes in--"What are you doing? We know what you are doing! Where are those Jews?" On and on he quizzes me. My heart is going "Chitty, Chitty! Bang! Bang! Chitty, Chitty! Bang! Bang!" And I'm asking myself, "When will this Nut leave!?" I'm lieing to protect your life at the cost of mine! I just hope its a good one because if I "cough up" the truth--you're dead and I won't be far behind!

Now, what do you want me to tell the Gestapo when he come for you?

So, its Situation Ethics. If you don't want me to tell a lie to save your life--just go on to the next house! A lie to save a life in certain situations? You bet! 1 Peter 4: 8, "And above all things have fervent love among yourselves; for love shall cover the multitudes of sins."

 

Blackbird, Proverbs 6 tells us that there are six things God hates; one of them is a lying tongue. Another is false witness. In contrast, Phillipians 4 instructs us to think on things that are true and honest. We find that Peter lied about knowing the Lord three times, but that Jesus forgave him. We find in Colossians 3 that lying is a part of the old man we used to be. We see in Revelation 21 that no thing that maketh a lie shall enter the new city.

Suffice to say that situational ethics should always, as Post It stated, have a biblical foundation. No one here is going to change anyone else's mind. Each man must be convinced on his own.

This thread is merely turning in circles at this point.

Although I'd still like to know what happened to Jarlaxle....

See y'all in a couple of days.

 

Indeed, the same Nazi question comes up again
and again, but I repeat: Corrie ten Boom, a
woman who went through it in actuality, has
answered this when she decried her own lies
to the Nazis in hindsight.

 

I believe that if you read Miss Ten Boom's books over and over you will catch on to the idea that she and her sister had a pretty good "system" going on. True, in hindsight she regretted having to lie and cheat and steal but for the moments survival--she had to. In order to be successful in "Hideing" the Jews--they each had to "Program" themselves to lie and steal with no regrets as to the outcome! In the years following her release she states in her books that she had to go through a period of "de-programming" herself of lieing and "re-program" herself to being honest, fair, true, and gracious even to her former enemy.

 

Furthermore, when Miss Ten Boom's sister, Nollie, gave true witness to the Gestapo--it was Corrie and Betsie who each stated that from that point on--Nollie could not be involved in the "Underground" system they had going on.

And read futher into the book--there is an episode there where one of the Jews was "gripeing" because he wanted "kosher" food--to which Casper ten Boom tells me something like--in this day and time he must eat what was available and that the Lord God will see that forgiveness come.

Now, wouldn't that be another form of Situation Ethics? I beg readers to view the angle where human life is at stake . . .!

 

I, too, eat kosher, and I can see where this
Christian man's attitude came from as well as
where the Jewish man's came from. When I
am invited to eat at a Christian's home, they
will sometimes purposely serve pork or crab,
then pity me because I eat vegetables. 8o)
They do not understand. 8o)

But if I had no choice, I would eat the pig and
pray that the Lord would turn it into a cow
on my tongue, just like . . . oh, I can't think of
the word---the one when the priest places
the host on the person's tongue and it trans-
forms into the actual body of our Lord. 8o)

Regardless, I, too, have read of ten Boom's
books, and in doing so, read clear statements
of her regret for her lies 8o)

[ August 06, 2002, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: Abiyah ]

 

You trust in a God that makes you do something he despises?

Sorry, I trust in a God that is powerful enough to deliver us from evil without breaking His own laws.

Man made laws are never to be given authority over God's law. Only when they can be in accord with His Word are they to be followed.

God protects those how obey Him even when the law says you can't. Ask the gentlemen who survived the fiery furnace.

Peter was imprisoned for obeying God that is why God helped him to escape. If he was in for doing anything other then being obedient to God, I am sure he would have served his sentence.

Some people go to a lot of trouble to try and make sin seem a little less bad.

The word hate is an awfully strong word, don't ya think? Don't you trust God enough?

Want some food for thought...chew on this...

What do you value more...human life...or God who gives eternal life...

We grasp so hard to things of this world. Maybe we should not only trust in God to save us, maybe we should trust him enough to give Him our life...

Why is death such a fearful thing if we trust in God? We want to be saved from hell, but we don't ever want to get to heaven either....

Don't fear if you are hiding in my house, I won't be working by my own power and my own ability to lie and deceive, I will be placing you in the love and protection of the everlasting arms, even if it costs me my life here on earth!

~Lorelei

[ August 06, 2002, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: Lorelei ]

 

I respect your view, but I have some problems with this outlook on life. Especially since it isn't Biblical. I remember feeling like that right after being saved and whenever I needed to live in denial. I feel God wants us to use the brain he gave us. That includes all forms of survival, self-defense, caution, aggression, anger, and every other emotion he granted us to the glory of God.

A cult-member mentality is pretty close to what you just described.

[ August 06, 2002, 07:41 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

Do you not long to be with the Lord? Paul did.

I wasn't saying we should all just die now so we can be with the Lord, for we are here for a purpose. But someday that purpose will end and we will be called home to be with the Lord. I honestly think some people are not looking forward to that day.

People die everyday all over the world for a cause. A military man will die to save freedom, a policeman dies to protect a citizen, a fireman dies to save a child. Why is this honorable, yet dying for God is not? Maybe we so quickly forget that those writers of the NT are dead because of what they believed. Christ Himself died that we might live. If I follow Christ, shouldn't I put my own life on the line for another? I don't have to lie to save a life, but I might have to die for it. Just because I am willing does not make me a cult member.

I trust in God enough to know that if it is not my time to be called home, then he will provide a way out without me having to break His laws, especially one he despises so vehemently.

It isn't some wierd cult, it's simply called faith.

~Lorelei

 

More food for thought:

What if Jesus thought like you did

If he would have lied and denied the charges , then they might not have been able to hang Him.

Where would we be then?

~Lorelei

 

Well, well! Its still a case of Situation Ethics! I believe there is coming a day in which this world has never seen--where persecutions will be handed out "piece meal" for the believers in Christ. Christians will be hunted down like dogs. There will be a leader rise up that'll make Hitler look like a Boy Scout troop leader. Go ahead! Rehearse what you think might happen if you live long enough to see that day and age! And when it all boils down--you'll probably be looking for someone to "cover" you as you make your escape--just like those Jews in wartime Europe. Just like those missionaries in wartime South Pacific!

What about Rahab the harlot? Folks on this site say that God despises lies being made. He hates it with a passion. And yet Rahab "lies through her teeth" to save those "missionaries." And furthermore--she is described to a "tee" in God's great "Hall of Faith" chapter--Hebrews 11: 31, "By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace." And then she is also named in the blessed Lord Jesus' geneology!! How can God Almighty "hate" what she did--and yet at the same time--"pat her on the back" for living by faith?

 

Rahab didn't even have God's law, she was not from the nation of Isreal. But look what she said:

God counted her worthy because of her faith! She had not law, but she believed God was the God of heaven and earth!

She was blessed in spite of her lies, not because of them.

~Lorelei

 

I agree in the belief that these times are coming. But I disagree with your suggestion that the heroes will be the liars. Many Christians have laid down their lives for the glory of God, many because they would not lie by denying the Saviour.

Those who have already compromised their character by rationalizing sin will not be the ones I would trust to hide me or my family. If lying is OK to protect life then the obvious question is whose life will be protected when it comes to my family or theirs. Will they lie to me to trap me in order to save their own life or their family?

Situational ethics does not work. We are not supposed to think in terms of disobeying God to achieve His will... but that really isn't what you are arguing. What you are saying is that you would be willing to lie to accomplish what you deem good in spite of God's revealed will that forbids lying.

All true. However even when men mean it for evil, God is able to work it for good... which is ultimately nothing more nor less than His glory. Sin does not glorify God other than when He executes judgment upon it.

 

Yes, there is coming a day. If you believe that Christians will be around during that day, a point will come when no one will be able to buy or sell without taking a mark.

You will be unable to purchase food for your children.

What then? Will you lie to yourself? "I don't really mean anything by taking this mark; God really knows my heart, and knows that I'm only doing this to be able to feed my babies. I'm just pretending to take the mark."

Or, perhaps, "I'll take the mark in order to help out this underground railroad I'm working with. It doesn't really mean anything, because I'm really a Christian, I'm just taking the mark in order to buy food and stuff for these people that I'm hiding."

Situation ethics....

 

I am actually pretrib/premil. None the less, I think that persecution of "fundamentalist" Christians in America is a very real possibility within the next generation or two. I am not an alarmist nor a big conspiracy theorist... but all you have to do is look at what is going on in our society.

Social agendas are recreating the common morality. The schools and media teach the new morality. The time will come when Christians who hold to biblical principles will be considered immoral. (Witness the term "homophobe" as applied to anyone who says homosexuality is a sin.) This may seem foreign to our conscience but the first Christians were deemed "immoral" due to their radical departure from societal norms. Christians in countries dominated by communism, Islam, Hinduism, extreme secular humanism, etc. are considered inferior in their beliefs if not immoral.

An attack on fundamentalists will not even be considered an attack on Christianity since most of the people calling themselves Christians largely accept the changes. And we all know that all fundamentalists are potentially dangerous to society. Some liberal politicians have already been brazen enough to equate Christian fundamentalists in America to Islamic fundamentalists in the Al Qaeda so the idea that "It can't happen here" is already disproven. All it takes now is propaganda... in case you had not noticed, not many media outlets go out of their way to praise the virtues of fundamental evangelical Christians.

My hope is that we will not accept situational morality nor engage in armed resistance but stand for biblical principles to the glory of God even to the point of death.