"Is it ever right to do wrong?"

Dear Brother Don,

To respond to your reply--sometimes in a confrontation with an enemy--the Nazi's, Saddam Hussian's queer bunch, etc.,--to not say anything in response to a direct question--is an admission of guilt.

And to reply to your pet-peeve of misspelled words--there are dozens and dozens of posts here with misspelled words--sometimes when typing on a keyboard--one's fingers will hit a "d" when it should have been a "t"--and besides all that--the good moderator does not grade according to one's ability to spell correctly!

 

I'm in the military, Blackbird. I'm very familiar with the concept of saying nothing. The scenario I presented you was that I would simply push through the gentlemen at my door, close the door behind me, and walk down the block to the corner store, all without saying a word.

I have no doubt in my mind that they will be enraged by my unwillingness to cooperate with them. I have no doubt in my mind that they will jack me up, point a gun at my head, beat me with a nightstick, even shoot me--or all of the above.

I also have no doubt that you would use the distraction and the time that I'm providing you to escape out the back way.

If that's not good enough for you, then consider it like this: I've presented my side of this discussion in a manner that seems to say that if you lie, you're wrong. Conversely, you've presented your side of the discussion in a manner that says if I don't lie, I'm wrong.

What I'm really offering is something else. I don't lie, but I don't give an admission of guilt, and further, I present myself as a sacrifice in your place. If you don't believe it will work, you've apparently never tried it. I have, on at least one occasion, and it threw the people I was using it on "off kilter" so bad they really didn't know how to handle the situation (which, to be honest, wasn't life-or-death, but dealt with people being hounded unfairly). They simply left.

Each of us must be led by his own conscience, and his own walk with God.

As for spelling, I did mention that I make those errors enough myself--and I even admitted above that I spelled the word incorrectly myself...so please take it as the constructive criticism that it was intended, not a slam or a slur. I've seen the word spelled with a "d" many, many times by many, many different people, and just wanted to point out that it's actually spelled with a "t"--as in, "congrats" as opposed to "congrads". My apologies if my pointing it out really offended you.

 

According to the Lord it is lawful to do well on the Sabbath.

God's law said you couldn't work on the Sabbath, man added the other rules that would have forbidden healing.

As Jesus said, he never broke the law, for doing good is lawful. Where does this say that doing wrong is ok to accomplish a greater good?

God despises lying, he makes it crystal clear all throughout scripture. Where does he say he only despises it, if you lie to "save face"?

I have said, as have others, I would give my life before giving up those I was hiding, but I still would not lie. But that isn't good enough, for you all want to be saved by man and not by God.

Since no one has answered my question I will have to assume that you all think God is too weak to truly intervene and care for those who are doing His work and are being obedient to His Words in the process.

Sorry all, but my God is stronger then that.

~Lorelei

 

Don,
I think your scenario is a viable option. The end result would probably be the same without you having to tell an untruth.

In this scenario, as I stated above, I feel that God's higher law of doing well would supercede God's command not to lie.

Now, let me say that if telling an untruth in this situation would violate your conscience then I would say do not lie.
Acts 24:16 "And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men."

If you are able to recognize the higher good that this would do, then do as you feel God would have you do.

I do not espouse situational ethics. You have to be very certain that what you are doing is exactly what God would have you do.

 

Don,
You quote Scripture, and that's good. But you did not even attempt to answer the questions concerning Rahab and the Hebrew handmaids. These incidents are also contained in Scripture.

 

Hi, Terry. These were answered earlier in the
thread.

 

So Don, what would you do if it went down like this?

Blackbird was hiding under your table, the Nazi's came to the door and said. We want to kill Blackbird, Is Blackbird hiding under your table, if he is not, say he is not or we will assume he is.

Silence has on many occasions cost someone their life.

[ August 13, 2002, 01:20 AM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

Then if we replaced Blackbird with your 10-year old daughter, would that make a difference?

While I know God doesn't like lying; he also knows we will lie.

[ August 13, 2002, 01:26 AM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

Interesting discussion. I know my position is not necessarily clearly thought out or consistent.
In response to your scenario, though, I am not sure how it answers your own criteria. Hiding someone to begin with in that situation would be "against the law". God is able to save someone without us having to break the law. Lying can be much more than just verbal. Not answering at all in this scenario could be considered deception or misrepresentation.

And by your own earlier statements, Don, you would physically defend your family from attack (and rightly so), balancing that principle against other principles to forgive, turn the other cheek. Yet God could spare your family without you lifting a finger.

Karen

 

I see no reason why these verses, or any other verses that I have quoted in this discussion, should not be taken as litteral promises. If you disagree with the plain reading of Scripture, you must provide a Scriptural basis for that disagreement. Why do you claim that these promises cannot be counted on 100%?</font>[/QUOTE]I didn't mean to say these promises can't be counted on 100% of the time, I used them to achieve most of the things in my life.
Further, I teach the same concepts to business students of mine.

I only meant you won't get what you ask for 100% of the time. Sorry if that came out wrong in the earlier post.

However, I still disagree with your original argument that God will always give you the right answer when you pray for it. That doesn't work, nor is it Biblical to say he does. He can, but he doesn't "always".

[ August 13, 2002, 01:54 AM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

Post, my same answer still applies. If presented with a question such as yours, I would initiate an attack.

Karen, if you look at Matthew 5:38-39, you'll find that "turn the other cheek" is stated in the context of revenge. You'll also find that it's talking about personal affronts; what we're talking about here falls under the principle of stewardship, and protection of others, not myself.

 

Oh, and Post--the question I asked earlier is waiting for a response from you as well: What if worms had machine guns?

 

What qualifies as "higher good" than obeying God's explicit commands to His glory? How would you suggest that we determine "what God would have 'us' do" if not from scripture?

Like Don, I was in the military. We were trained to tell the enemy only our name, rank, and service number. It wasn't just for moral reasons but even the army recognizes that lying creates complications that are more dangerous than saying nothing at all. One scenario goes like this: "You tell a lie to send the enemy off in the wrong direction. In the mean time, your commander, aware that you know the battle plan, changes his plan and is destroyed by the enemy."

In your Nazi scenario, you don't know what implications your lie might have. It might save the life of one while sacrificing the life of 20 by sending them to their next search area too soon. Or maybe the one you are saving will father a serial killer later in life that kills 10's or 100's.

The point is that we do not know how God is fitting things together. We are simply to follow His commands and leave the ultimate good up to Him... through faith like Lorilei said.

 

I am still waiting for your response. Surely, the unborn are more innocent than anyone you might have been hiding from the Nazis.

Shouldn't we be willing to lie or even kill to protect them? (I don't believe this last statement by the way, I am just applying your logic.)

[ August 13, 2002, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: Scott J ]

 

Don, thanks for your response. I would appreciate further clarification on my other point. By your criteria, how is silently "breaking the law" to hide someone okay, and how is refusing to answer not misrepresentation or deception, a form of lying?

Karen

 

Excellent point and very well stated!

We have already shown from scripture that God's law takes precedence over the laws of Man. God would not want us to obey a law that would make us serve another God or that would have us kill innocent people simply because of thier race/religion/etc.

Hiding someone is breaking man's law, not God's.

When Jesus said it was lawful to do good, that is exactly what he meant. Jesus never said it was lawful to break God's laws for a greater good. As Scott shared above, how can you dare say you know what is or is not right in God's eyes unless it is through studying the scripture?

You honestly think that my refusal to answer is a lie? How do you get that? I am not deceiving them into thinking that I was or will answer. I am not misrepresenting my intent to keep silent. I am honestly telling them that I will not give them an answer.

Was Jesus misrepresenting himself or using deception when he remained silent and didn't answer the charges against himself?

~Lorelei

 

Thanks for a good response, Lorelei. Here is what I think is an interesting link: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09469a.htm
Augustine and others wrestled with hiding a person from murderers, and silence when being questioned, long before WWII. It seemed to them that there are SOME times when silence can be misrepresentation. Then, mental reservations are discussed in this link, in which a person says the truth, but it can be misleading.

Karen

 

Thanks, Lorelei. You put that in writing much better than I would have.

 

Some times silence is lying. However, I cannot think of a single instance where it would be lying if you made it clear that you were refusing to answer as opposed to silently hiding the truth.

Pleading the 5th amendment is not the same as committing purgery by not answering a question completely.

 

I am still waiting for your response. Surely, the unborn are more innocent than anyone you might have been hiding from the Nazis.

Shouldn't we be willing to lie or even kill to protect them? (I don't believe this last statement by the way, I am just applying your logic.)</font>[/QUOTE]Still no answer?