Letter from CBF Pastor Rev. Joshua Villines to MBLA Research Director Roger Moran

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Wells:
Ellis,

What exactly is it you have a problem with? Exposing the perversion of God's Word maybe?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I went to this website. I do not see what the MBLA and Roger Moran and the Bible have in common. Their actions certainly negate any hint that they believe what they read in scripture.

 

Keith, what is the problem? We all sin from time to time (me more than I should) but we can and should confess them to God(1 John 1:9). But when you live to sin or teach others that sin isn't sin, we are wrong. Pride is one of our biggest sins and we don't like God or anyone to teach or tell us what we are doing is sin. Pride leads to disobedience and disobedience to all the rest.

 

Keith,

Does the 90% that you're with him on include condoning homosexuality and abortion? You are a little unclear on that. You are right, sin is sin in God's eyes, but we happen to be talking (focusing) on the two I mentioned above with regards to Joshua. Why must we discuss all sins simultaneously when discussing these two? Is that some sort of detractor? You want to discuss some other sins, start a thread on each one. Let's discuss the two that Joshua is openly supportive of: homosexuality, and killing babies.

Sounds like, and I'm not accusing you of this, but sounds like your attitude is "so what if I have sin "A" in my life, because other people have sin "B" in their life. So it's OK for me to continue to have sin "A" in my life." We are not to compare ourselves with one another, but with Jesus Christ, who lived a perfect life. Although we will never become perfect this side of heaven, that does not absolve us of the responsibility to keep seeking righteousness and perfection: not to earn our ticket to heaven (which true believers already have), but to be better witnesses (more useful) for our Savior.

[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Keith, what is the problem? We all sin from time to time (me more than I should) but we can and should confess them to God(1 John 1:9). But when you live to sin or teach others that sin isn't sin, we are wrong. Pride is one of our biggest sins and we don't like God or anyone to teach or tell us what we are doing is sin. Pride leads to disobedience and disobedience to all the rest. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem is the near fanatic exclusion of homosexuals from churches (in many if not most quarters - the good Reverend Villanes being an exception). Why not expel all overweight or those with excessive pride. In short why do we pick of the sin of homosexuality and wink at the other sins mentioned in parallel context in Romans 1;28-30.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Wells:
Keith,

Does the 90% that you're with him on include condoning homosexuality and abortion? You are a little unclear on that. You are right, sin is sin in God's eyes, but we happen to be talking (focusing) on the two I mentioned above with regards to Joshua. Why must we discuss all sins simultaneously when discussing these two? Is that some sort of detractor? You want to discuss some other sins, start a thread on each one. Let's discuss the two that Joshua is openly supportive of: homosexuality, and killing babies.
[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


OK, I'm against both - my judgment is that they are wrong in God's sight. I even think abortion is wrong in cases of incest/rape; but leave room for bonafide life of the mother. But I'm open to new facts and do not overly villify those that have done these deeds or have these continuing lifestyles. Why not exclude from fellowhip anyone who is overweight (or halt dinners on the ground). Why not exclude prideful people or those with judgmental attitudes or any of the other sins mentioned in Romans 1:28-30.

WWJD - He would have compassion on even a prostitude, tell her to sin no more and I think He would continually show her grace if her practice contuned. ie. He would continue open fellowship with her. Jesus would reserve His harshest criticisms for the Pharisees who would be the ones expelling the prostitute (or homosexual or abortee or abortionist).

I'm 90% for Joshua because he is more Christlike in attitude and remember Christ looks at the heart.

Sometimes I wonder if I read the same Bible as the militant Fundamentalists. Perhaps us liberals look at the substance/message more and do less selective gotchas.

 

Keith, I don't think we wink at sin, I love to witness to those in jail, and when they get out they are welcome in our church. But less say they were in for robbing a convenience store and they went back to robbing, I would be the first to get them back into jail. Less say the tongue of gossip or division was their sin, as long as they kept it under contol I would stand by them, even if they messed up from time to time and ask God for forgiveness and who ever they hurt, I would still stand by them. It is the attitude toward the sin that makes the differents.
Immorality under any theological disguise is still sin. As I said before I think so many of our sins start with our pride, I want to do it my way, rather than what is taught in the bible.

[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: Bob Alkire ]

 

Ryan thanks for your thoughful reply.

But think again if you would. The text under discussion is in Romans 1:18ff. Look at it.

NRSV
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of those who by their wickedness suppress the truth. 19For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things he has made. So they are without excuse; 21for though they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their senseless minds were darkened. 22Claiming to be wise, they became fools; 23and they exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling a mortal human being or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the degrading of their bodies among themselves, 25because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
26For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, 27and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.
28And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind and to things that should not be done. 29They were filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, craftiness, they are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters,£ insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, rebellious toward parents, 31foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32They know God?s decree, that those who practice such things deserve to die?yet they not only do them but even applaud others who practice them.


If you accept vs.26 as condemnation of homosexuality (and not as God relenting to their passions since they did all that stuff mentioned in vss.18-23,25,28), then you must logically accept as condemnation (with no difference made as to degree of punishment) vss. 24 (lustful hearts even of the hetero sort), and all thoseitems listed in vss 29-31.

I know this is a paradigm breaker. I too am appalled by homosexuality (especially since that one time in the HS gym I saw.....better stop). While I accept your point that Scripture has differing punishments, I do not see anywhere where homosexuality or abortion are especially heinous. I think we are all too often quick to reinforce our cultural views than really be transformed by an even, unbiased reading of the Bible. Now I haven't bothered to check all OT references to the relative punishment level for homosexuality - maybe you could do that. I do remember that a rebellious son gets death
and I think homosexuality gets the same. Kinda of like Romans 1:26-27 and the end of Romans 1:30.

I'll tell you one thing - we should thank God for His graciousness everyday.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bob Alkire:
Keith, I don't think we wink at sin, I love to witness to those in jail, and when they get out they are welcome in our church. But less say they were in for robbing a convenience store and they went back to robbing, I would be the first to get them back into jail. Less say the tongue of gossip or division was their sin, as long as they kept it under contol I would stand by them, even if they messed up from time to time and ask God for forgiveness and who ever they hurt, I would still stand by them. It is the attitude toward the sin that makes the differents.
Immorality under any theological disguise is still sin. As I said before I think so many of our sins start with our pride, I want to do it my way, rather than what is taught in the bible.


[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: Bob Alkire ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wink is a relative term and I did not mean to imply that good Christians overtly approve of sin. They often have an unbalanced response however - putting more guilt/blame on the biggies and not seriously attacking the more internal attitudes. You hit it on the head when you said many sins start with pride. Thanks for your reply and keep on working with those prisoners (that sounds Christlike). Got to go.

 

keith said, "But I'm open to new facts and do not overly villify those that have done these deeds or have these continuing lifestyles.

So it's OK by you that I can continue to murder, steal, rape?

No one is disagreeing with you that other sins are condemnable as well as homosexuality and abortion. It's just that those happen to be openly practiced with NO REMORSE OR REPENTANCE! We're comparing repented sins of all types with two particular unrepented sins.

A born-again repentant ex-homosexual is no different in God's eyes than a born-again repentant ex-murderer.

But then again, a practicing homosexual is no different than a practicing murderer!

 

I wasn't mentioning Romans 1. I can post other sources, but not now, I'm about to fall asleep. :-D