God loves the Sinner and Hates the sin?

God is love. He loves the sinner. But one who does not accept His love (by accepting Jesus), is thrown into the lake of fire.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
--Revelation 20:15 (NIV)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[ September 18, 2001: Message edited by: Footwasher ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sir Ed:
Is being cast in the lake of fire Biblical?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please --- do you really need a list of scriptures. Even Jesus is quoted as saying something to the effect of cast where the fire is never quenched.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Larry:
God loves the Sinner and Hates the sin?

I have seen that quoted a lot lately but I'm not so sure it's biblical.

It's not the sin that gets cast into the lake of fire; it's the sinner.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dang, I'm sure glad God loves us sinners or I doubt he would have taken the step to send his only Son to die for us.

"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the whole world." 2 John 2:2

Don't know about you but that sure answers the question for me

Until Next Post, Adam

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Larry:
God loves the Sinner and Hates the sin?

I have seen that quoted a lot lately but I'm not so sure it's biblical.

It's not the sin that gets cast into the lake of fire; it's the sinner.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Larry, GREAT QUESTION. Tough answer. . .

I know there are many references, particularly in the old testament when God is said to have hated sinners. He had sinners destroyed right and left. Sodom and Gomorrah. . . When the Israelites crossed the Jordan they were ORDERED to KILL every man, woman and child, including their animals. He later punished the Israelites for salvaging several cities and inter-marriage with them. Every time Israel strayed from God they were invaded, slaughtered, captured, had their temples destroyed, etc. etc.

But, then we find some changes in the New Testament. In Mathew Jesus says that the law said to love your neighbor, but I tell you to love your enemies. Jesus was scorned by the Jews for eating with sinners at their house and he scolded the Jews and said--that's why I'm here. Believers don't need me, the sinners do.

Even in the old testament we are told not to laugh when our enemies are suffering and treat them nice when they treat us bad and it will heap coals of fire on their heads.

I think we see a God who created man in his own image and that refers a lot to "emotion" (I'm working on a book on this subject.) He referred to the Israelites as his bride and therefore when they sinned he felt like a husband with a wife sleeping with someone else. God is a jealous God. BUT, obviously God must have loved us because a penalty had to be paid for the sin, and it was paid through the grace of GIVING his Son to us. I think maybe God, as our creator has rights that he has not given us. This is the right as a person (not a government -- they HAVE GOD granted responsibility to judge and punish (Romans 13:1-6), but as Christian individuals we are to be like Christ was as a person. I honestly think that even though God KNOWS everything, is ALL POWERFUL. Being human was a different experience to what he was used to. I know for sure about this when he cried to God on the cross "Father why hast though forsaken me." God had turned his back on Jesus who had ALL the sins of the world dumped on his shoulders at that moment...because God hates sin. (Notice I didn't say Jesus sinned, I said that the sins of the world were dumped on him as he was sacrificed for them). Having always had his Father to turn to, he was for once alone--forsaken --more terrible than the pain of hanging on spikes. He suffered more than any human in history. Now, a lot of this is theory on my part, but believed by a lot of scholars I have talked to. So, I think God actually loves ALL people, but abhores sin SO MUCH that the sacrifice HAD to be made and the people HAVE to accept that sacrifice. I know the Holy Spirit convicts sinners to turn to Jesus--this is taught. So obviously some-how God must care while hating that sin, but it is also my understanding that if a person rejects him long enough the Spirit will Quit convicting and give that person over to Satan to do as he pleases. (I don't remember the scripture, maybe someone can help me here.) At least that is the way I understand it. So, like all the other mysteries of the universe. I don't know if we will ever know the REAL answer to this one. I dunno Larry -- just throwing in my two cents and thoughts.

 

Well said Phillip! Personally, whenever I have made the statement in question it has been in reference to christians when we sin. But I do think it applies to both. "For ALL have sinned...." and "For God so LOVED the world..." WHile we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. As for the comment about it not being the sin that gets cast into the lake of fire, but the sinner" Larry, you would be remiss not to take into account WHY he throws the sinner into the lake of fire "For the wages of SIN is DEATH"
I can't speak for anyone else but as for myself I'm still a sinner, well actually I can speak regarding everyone else too because the bible does say that there are none that are perfect. Granted, I'm a sinner saved by grace but I am a sinner. THe only difference between me and your unsaved sinner is that I accepted GOd's gift, his offering of his Son to die on the cross for me, pay the penalty of my sin. My place in heaven has been secured. The unsaved sinner still has to settle their account and sadly enough, 'the wages of sin is death' and although God does love us and he doesn't want to punish us, he IS a just God, therefore he MUST punish sin. I'm sure finds no pleasure in casting someone into hell, It probably breaks his heart...because he does love us. NOT the SIN.

 

You have to remember when God hates, it's with a perfect hate. He sees all, knows all, understands all. He can see right down into the heart of someone, he knows their soul in a way no human can know another. I believe you're thinking of hate in the way humans hate one another. Might be wrong though.

Paula

 

WE also must understand that because of God's infinite perfections, God can love with all of his love, and hate with all of his holy hatred the same object at the same time. Humans are incapable of such.

 

Larry,

Very good topic. I have pondered the verses you listed above often. Let me throw this out as a question... Could it be that a humans greatest love in comparison to God would be His hate?

Just a thought.

 

Larry, let me address you with a few questions:

1) Those quotes from Psalms that you gave us, from David, the beloved of God: Were they before or after he committed adultery and murder?

Not implying the weak argument of "so David was a bad guy when he said that"; testing your knowledge of scripture.

2) Galatians 5:19-20--Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,....

Can you please explain justification for hatred of the sinner when given this passage?

3) As someone mentioned, while we were yet sinners, God loved us enough to die on the cross for us. Yet we were told back in Proverbs, I believe, that as a man thinketh, so is he.

In other words, if God hates the sinner, and we're supposed to hate the sinner, because as we think/believe in our hearts, so are we; how are we supposed to love our neighbors? If God loved us so much that He gave His only begotten son, in spite of the fact that He hates sin, then how can we say that we must unequivocally hate?

4) If there are two sets of rules, as has been implied in this thread, that God can absolutely love and absolutely hate at the same time, but we humans are not capable of that (i.e., we must either love or hate), then we have to decide: Do we follow Christ's commandment to love our neighbor, or do we follow the example of David and hate those that hate God?

5) Ultimately, these questions lead to: Do we hate the person, or do we hate the sin? Because if even God can forgive those whose righteousnesses are as filthy wrags, how can we, who cannot even approach the magnitude of His love, not do the same?

Don't get me wrong; we should condemn sin, and call it sin; and those who sin should be told that they're sinning. But does that equate to those who sin should be hated?

Thanks, Larry, for answering these questions.

 

Let me make a quick remark about David and Psalms. David was KING at the time he made many of the remarks about asking God to kill his enemies, confuse them, make them suffer, etc. etc. Being King, he WAS the government, annointed by God (sinner or not). Could he have been speaking on behalf of his country during a lot of this, because according to Romans 13: 1-6 the government HAS the RESPONSIBILITY to protect its citizens whether with warfare or punishment to those who harm others. (I realize this does not apply to his crying to God for forgiveness when he sinned, I'm referring to the many, many times he asked for victory at war and God helped him destroy his enemies.)
If he was not acting as an individual, but as the government in these verses, then he would have been justified, at least the way I see it. He might have been contemplating these things privately as a person, but when he referred to "enemies" I believe he mostly referred to the enemies of his people. Any comments on this?

Jesus commanded his followers to love their enemies, but he was referring to individuals. If our President decides to put a terrorist on trial and execute him, then he is only carrying out the responsibility given to him by God in Romans. It is our responsibility to follow the governments leadership. The government carries the "sword" used for JUSTICE. If we do nothing wrong, we have nothing to fear. If we break the laws of the land the sword of justice will be applied; however, It should be done without hate and technically, we are "supposed" to love even the terrorist. --probably the reason we are saved by Grace and not by Works--we would NEVER make it.

[ September 20, 2001: Message edited by: Phillip ]

 

&lt; He might have been contemplating these things privately as a person, but when he referred to "enemies" I believe he mostly referred to the enemies of his people. Any comments on this? &gt;

The word "enemies" is used in relation to David in I Samuel 20 and 25; before he became king.

But the biggest difficulty I see with this line of reasoning that *government* may wage war and avenge, while individuals must not, often comes down to 'which government?' Were the American patriots in sin by standing against the British government? and if so, is the U.S. government even now not a *legitimate* government? For that matter, Britain was controlled by the Celts, Romans, Danes, Norman French, and others-- was the government which was to be obeyed by killing in its name *which ever* government had the most power at the time?

In the case of the current international situation, is it a sin against God if an Afgani cooperates with the U.S. to hand over Bin Laden, since that person would be opposing his government? Or is Taliban a *legitimate* government? Is it to be obeyed by its people-- even to killing in its name-- simply because it has ramrodded power over the majority of a country?

 

Larry, the fact that you don't have a clear-cut answer for 3, 4, and 5 tells us that "hate the sin, love the sinner" isn't necessarily just a cliche.

As to your true/false:
1) True (but don't mistake anger for hatred)
2) True

As for your thought: God never says in scripture "let my anger be exhibited through you." He does say, "let your light so shine before men, that they might see your good works, and glorify our father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16). He does say "Vengeance is mine; I will repay" (Romans 12:19).

There's a principle I teach the teens: YOU are the only Bible some people ever bother seeing; what kind of Bible are you?

One of love?

Or one of hate?

 

Almost forgot; as to the Psalms, yes, Psalm 51 is the record of David repenting. Unfortunately, the Psalms (as they are presented in most English language bibles) are not in chronilogical order. Psalm 139 is the only one that I can confirm (at this time) happened after Psalm 51; the rest occured before Psalm 51, but I haven't been able to determine whether they were written before or after David committed adultery and murder.

But it's really a moot point. Whether they were or not, what we MUST realize is that the Plan changed with the sacrifice of Christ. While it was okay for David to pen those words, God Himself in the flesh gave us something different: Love thy neighbor. Do good unto your enemies, that you might heap coals upon their heads. And oh so much more.

We need to preach that sin is sin, and those that knowingly and willingly commit sin are incurring the wrath (punishment) of God; but we do not need to preach that God is a God of hatred.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Larry:
God loves the Sinner and Hates the sin?

I have seen that quoted a lot lately but I'm not so sure it's biblical.

It's not the sin that gets cast into the lake of fire; it's the sinner.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Psalm 5:4 For You are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness, Nor shall evil dwell with You.
5 The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity.
6 You shall destroy those who speak falsehood; The LORD abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man.

Seems pretty clear.