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Is Man a Free Moral Agent?
- Thread starter KenH
- Start date
npetreley,
Thanks for you comments.
I’m not trying to argue with you. This is your theology and I respect it.
Thanks for you comments.
If he didn’t have enough faith in God, how was he then “perfect” or “sinless”? Isn’t being weak in faith considered a sign of dependency (“Lord I believe, help my unbelief”)? If he didn’t have enough faith to believe God had a good reason for telling him to not touch of the tree, what kind of person was Adam? Was he like a child? What kind of child has the level of responsibilities given to Adam?
I’m not trying to argue with you. This is your theology and I respect it.
Where do you get your ideas concerning Adam’s faith? Does it say that anywhere? Again, not trying to argue with you, just making a point.
The tendency is to think of “the knowledge of good and evil” in terms of one side of the coin or the other. What about thinking in terms of degree or extent? Can Adam be conscious of disobedience without any degree of “knowledge between good and evil”? When in the act of disobedience, we agree Adam knew “this was wrong”. Isn’t the knowledge of doing “wrong” in itself knowledge to decipher what is “right”? In other terms, a degree of "knowlege of good and evil".
It's a good point. The issue of faith is my interpretation. It doesn't say that in the Bible. What the Bible says is that Adam disobeyed. IMO he did so because he didn't trust God that He had a good reason for disallowing that tree.
Obviously he could, since he disobeyed before his eyes were opened to good and evil, and he was punished for it.
He knew he was disobeying God. He was told what the consequences would be, and did so in spite of that knowledge. Whether or not he recognized that disobedience was "evil" is something altogether different. I take the Bible at its word that something was fundamentally changed about his awareness the moment he ate. Suddenly Adam and Eve knew they were naked, for example.
I think we're getting hung up on semantics at this point. You refer to knowledge of right from wrong as knowledge of good and evil. I am saying he knew it was "right" to obey and "wrong" to disobey, because that's what he was told, but that does not constitute knowledge of good and evil.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Knowing right from wrong IS knowing good from evil.
The text does not say "man did not know good From Evil". It says that man came to the point of knowing "Good AND evil". Knowing as in "experiencing" it. Having only BEEN good, he had only "epxerience good" until he DID evil.
The term for 'knowing' is inclusive of "experience" in Genesis 3.
In Christ,
Bob
[ December 25, 2002, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
The text does not say "man did not know good From Evil". It says that man came to the point of knowing "Good AND evil". Knowing as in "experiencing" it. Having only BEEN good, he had only "epxerience good" until he DID evil.
The term for 'knowing' is inclusive of "experience" in Genesis 3.
In Christ,
Bob
[ December 25, 2002, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
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Yelsew
Guest
Do we keep our free will after we are saved?
Without doubt we do retain our free will, it was with free will that we were created, it is by free will that we chose to believe in and accept Jesus as our Savior. It is by free will that we learn of God and direct our own lives in accordance with what we learn. It is by our free will that we must resist temptation to do evil, it is by our free will that we submit our selves to do service to God. There is no question whatever that we retain our free will!
If so, can we choose to stop trusting in Christ?
If we have the ability to exercise our free will to choose to start trusting in Christ, we can exercise our free will to choose to stop trusting in Christ. That is, if our spirit can be persuaded one way it can also be persuaded in the opposite way, especially if we do not exercise our free will to reinforce our belief in the one who saves us.
If so, are we still saved?
Hypothetically place yourself in the role of the Christ. You have done a marvelous, miraculous transformation in a human's life and for a while the human grew to love you. Then another change takes place and that same human's love for you diminishes and he goes to the camp of evil, of his own free will. But you, being the good shepherd, go after him prodding him to return with you, but he refuses to return to your sheepfold. Is that one, one of your sheep? Do you forcefully take this one who refuses to return and thus be cleansed of sin into your sinless pasture? Why would you? Why would you place your other sheep at risk? Afterall, he chose to reject you of his own free, the free will that you gave to him.
Man remains a free moral agent who, though not able to create or develop the options, does make the choices that effect his eternal destiny. Those choices are strongly influenced by the spirit to which the man listens, God's Holy Spirit or that of the "father or lies'- "spirit of evil".
Without doubt we do retain our free will, it was with free will that we were created, it is by free will that we chose to believe in and accept Jesus as our Savior. It is by free will that we learn of God and direct our own lives in accordance with what we learn. It is by our free will that we must resist temptation to do evil, it is by our free will that we submit our selves to do service to God. There is no question whatever that we retain our free will!
If so, can we choose to stop trusting in Christ?
If we have the ability to exercise our free will to choose to start trusting in Christ, we can exercise our free will to choose to stop trusting in Christ. That is, if our spirit can be persuaded one way it can also be persuaded in the opposite way, especially if we do not exercise our free will to reinforce our belief in the one who saves us.
If so, are we still saved?
Hypothetically place yourself in the role of the Christ. You have done a marvelous, miraculous transformation in a human's life and for a while the human grew to love you. Then another change takes place and that same human's love for you diminishes and he goes to the camp of evil, of his own free will. But you, being the good shepherd, go after him prodding him to return with you, but he refuses to return to your sheepfold. Is that one, one of your sheep? Do you forcefully take this one who refuses to return and thus be cleansed of sin into your sinless pasture? Why would you? Why would you place your other sheep at risk? Afterall, he chose to reject you of his own free, the free will that you gave to him.
Man remains a free moral agent who, though not able to create or develop the options, does make the choices that effect his eternal destiny. Those choices are strongly influenced by the spirit to which the man listens, God's Holy Spirit or that of the "father or lies'- "spirit of evil".
KenH
Well-Known Member
Luke 15:3-7
3 So He told them this parable, saying,
4 “What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?
5 “When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 “And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’
7 “I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.
Notice how the Shepherd searches "until" He find the lost sheep. Notice how the Shepherd "lays it on His shoulders", He is not merely expecting the sheep to follow Him back home of its own free will.
Jesus has never, and will never, lose for eternity anyone whose sins He has suffered the punishment for. God forbid!
3 So He told them this parable, saying,
4 “What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?
5 “When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 “And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’
7 “I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.
Notice how the Shepherd searches "until" He find the lost sheep. Notice how the Shepherd "lays it on His shoulders", He is not merely expecting the sheep to follow Him back home of its own free will.
Jesus has never, and will never, lose for eternity anyone whose sins He has suffered the punishment for. God forbid!
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Your point is valid, and quite acceptable. However for the heart that has turned away from God, there is the parable of the farmer who takes his hand from the plow, thus making himself unworthy to the task at hand.
It is very difficult to see how the heart that refuses to be redeemed again is ever returned to the fold. God created us with free will, He is not likely to take that from us, because he wants willing worship not forced worship.
Hitler wanted forced worship, Edee Amin wanted forced servitude, Castro survives on forced worship, the Pharoah demanded forced worship, etc.
The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, has not been the God of forced worship even though he wrestled with Jacob, and recruited Saul in an unnatural way.
He does not treat any of us as slaves, even though we have no power whatever to prevent such treatment. So one must conclude that free will choice is the mode of operation that God uses on us to win us over to worship him freely. The choice is ours and ours alone!
It is very difficult to see how the heart that refuses to be redeemed again is ever returned to the fold. God created us with free will, He is not likely to take that from us, because he wants willing worship not forced worship.
Hitler wanted forced worship, Edee Amin wanted forced servitude, Castro survives on forced worship, the Pharoah demanded forced worship, etc.
The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, has not been the God of forced worship even though he wrestled with Jacob, and recruited Saul in an unnatural way.
He does not treat any of us as slaves, even though we have no power whatever to prevent such treatment. So one must conclude that free will choice is the mode of operation that God uses on us to win us over to worship him freely. The choice is ours and ours alone!
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Yelsew
Guest
Do you believe that man has a free will?
Explain how God gives us a "new heart".
What mechanics does he use to do that?
What does it really mean to "have a new heart"
Why is it that we must first be "hearers" of the word before we can be "doers" of the word.
Why is it that God's word "sent abroad" never returns void.
Why did Jesus always say that we must believe? Is believing not an act of free will?
Why are we given a choice between the broad highway to death and the narrow path to life everlasting? Isn't choosing an act of the free will?
Didn't the prophet give a choice, "Choose you this day whom you will serve?", then clearly declare "As for me and my house, we WILL serve the lord!" A free will human declaration of purpose and direction!
What is the purpose of all the illustrations of free will choice throughout the Old Testament, if we don't need to make a choice of our own free will?
I'm sorry Ken, but your religion is based on legalistic principle, and not at all on the biblical concept that God is the Father who allows his children to go where they will and do what they will. Those who choose to be true to God are his forever, those who choose to not be true to God depart from the family perhaps never to be rejoined again. We see this all the time in the human family. There are families where some remain true and steadfast to the family while others go their own way and do not remain with the family not even staying in touch. Why do you think the Family of God is any different?
Why do we have the story of the Prodigal? It was not God the shepherd that went to the son and put him on his shoulder and carried him home. The son, in an act of his own free will departed from the family and after botching his life completely, returned home humiliated and shamed, but welcomed by the father none the less.
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Yelsew
Guest
Another take on this. Since Jesus, no one has ever been saved except by free will choice, save perhaps Saul! There are no other recorded similar incidents as that of Saul on the road to Damascus. Virtually every heart that is turned to God is turned because of Hearing the word, accepting and believing the word, then Confessing Jesus, and repenting from sin. Can man do that without the help of the Holy Spirit? Probably not, but the Holy Spirit does not make up your mind for you! You alone must do that! You either accept or reject the gospel message, and yes, you may delay making a decision until you finally, truly, "hear" the word. But at some point you must decide! You must decide while living this natural life.
Not one person has ever been "passively saved"! If you do not actively make a decision for God, you passively reject God. Christianity does not exist on passivism, it cannot! There is no foundation for passivism unto salvation.
KenH
Well-Known Member
1) Man can only make choices within the confines of his nature, which was corrupted at the Fall in the Garden of Eden.
Romans 3:9-18(NASB)
9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10 as it is written,
“There is none righteous, not even one;
11 There is none who understands,
There is none who seeks for God;
12 All have turned aside, together they have become useless;
There is none who does good,
There is not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave,
With their tongues they keep deceiving,”
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness”;
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood,
16 Destruction and misery are in their paths,
17 And the path of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
2) Ezekiel 36:26(NASB)
26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
3) The regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.
Ezekiel 36:27(NASB)
27 “I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
4) Repenting and believing are free will acts of the renewed nature and new heart. Therefore, they are gifts from God.
Ephesians 2:8-10(NASB)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
Acts 13:48(NASB)
48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
Philippians 1:29(NASB)
29 For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
Acts 11:18
18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.”
2 Timothy 2:25(NASB)
25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
5) If you knew me well enough you would know I am certainly no legalist.
6) Regardless of how often a person purchased by the blood of Jesus Christ falls into the pit of sin, the Holy Spirit will always bring that person back into a state of repentance by His convicting power.
KenH
Well-Known Member
1) Probably not? Do you think someone can save himself without divine intervention? That sounds like the false doctrine taught by the Church of Christ denomination that I left almost four years ago.
2) In the interest of providing information on an alternative viewpoint, there are Christian Universalists(as contrasted with Unitarian Universalists) who would disagree with you on that statement. You might find the following written by a member of that group to be interesting www.tentmaker.org/books/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html.
3) I agree.
[ December 25, 2002, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: Ken H ]
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Yelsew
Guest
NOT TRUE, Man can choose to "hear" (believe) the Word of God from within the vilest conditions of the sin nature, turn from his wicked ways and thereby be redeemed by God. That is the only way that man can be redeemed.
Describes the sinful state of man. But even in this sinful state man can hear the word and through exercise of self will, believe the word and the one who sent the word to man.
What is the condition by which God will do this?
Ah yes, but what is the condition that be present for the Holy Spirit to do the regenerating? Man must be willing! An act of the free will!
But what is the condition that precedes this renewal? Man must be willing. In the days of Noah, none except Noah, his wife, his 3 sons and their wives were willing. What happened to the rest?
Does "faith" not imply a state of willingness on the part of the one having faith?
Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God...They believed what they heard and willingly accepted the Gift of life.
A grant has never been an issue of force. It is for Christ's sake that you are granted the right to believe in Him, even to suffer for his sake, but you must do so of your own free will.
Wow, the gentiles have the same right as us to believe in Jesus and have life! Amazing!
Gee, God may grant them the right to believe and repent, and learn the truth.
I have made no such claim. Free will is not what has fallen, but is rather the mechanism through which man did fall. Man exercised his free will to disobey God, but it is man that disobeyed, not his free will.
Only so long as the fallen one is willing to be restored!
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Yelsew
Guest
Y
Yelsew
Guest
I do not believe any man can save himself, But I do believe a man can condemn himself by not actively exercising his free will to choose to be saved.
A man drowning at sea, can refuse to be saved by not accepting the life saving attempts, or, he can actively and willfully reach out for whatever lifesaving device is afforded him, the choice is still man's choice.
Where in scripture does it say that God saves the unwilling?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Matt 18 shows free will after forgiveness can sometimes have a negative result. The last half of MAtt 18 describes "forgiveness revoked" after having been forgiven and required to show like-minded forgiveness to one's fellow man.
Romans 3:9-20 shows total depravity where the will of man "of every one" of "all flesh" chooses evil. "Not even One" chooses to follow God.
Because of that depravity "No one " will come to salvation UNLESS God draws him (John 6)
But it is in that context of the total depravity of 'each one' such that "not even one" chooses God without being drawn - that God "Draws All Mankind" unto himself John 12:32.
All mankind are thereby enabled to choose and are called upon to choose life. But only the FEW of Matt 7 choose the narrow way.
In Romans 2 where the cases of the saved and the lost are contrasted - the contrasting language of the chapter "shows" the difference to be "other than the arbitrary selection process" - but rather the choice for "perserverance in doing good" as the chapter explicitly states.
In Christ,
Bob
[ December 26, 2002, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
Romans 3:9-20 shows total depravity where the will of man "of every one" of "all flesh" chooses evil. "Not even One" chooses to follow God.
Because of that depravity "No one " will come to salvation UNLESS God draws him (John 6)
But it is in that context of the total depravity of 'each one' such that "not even one" chooses God without being drawn - that God "Draws All Mankind" unto himself John 12:32.
All mankind are thereby enabled to choose and are called upon to choose life. But only the FEW of Matt 7 choose the narrow way.
In Romans 2 where the cases of the saved and the lost are contrasted - the contrasting language of the chapter "shows" the difference to be "other than the arbitrary selection process" - but rather the choice for "perserverance in doing good" as the chapter explicitly states.
In Christ,
Bob
[ December 26, 2002, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]