Stumped on a question asked by a friend

Could not Jesus Christ appear to any man as He did to Saul of Tarsus on the Road to Damascus?

Could not God speak today directly to wicked men like He did the wicked kings in the Old Testament?

Could not God guide men to Him today as He did the wise men at Jesus' birth?

All through the Bible we have men coming to the Savior without human intervention. Why is that not possible today?

 

The Gospel in the Stars is a New Age cult disguised as Christianity. It is not Biblical.

Joseph Botwinick

 

I am somewhere between heartbroken sadness and total anger that anyone would or could declare to the person posting here "no, they don't go to heaven."

This is really going to help someone asking questions about God! That's sarcastic in case anyone missed it.

PTW, Abraham was told to recount or 'tell' the stars -- WHY? Because 'so shall your seed be' -- singlular. What was there in the stars that declared the Messiah to come? Read the article. Just read it. The amount of research the four of us put into it would have choked a horse. The names of the stars have transcended languages, ethnicities, and time -- why? Because God Himself named them -- and, like all ancient names, they mean something. Astrology has corrupted it, but it did not start out that way.

From the time of Christ on, for those who have heard the Story, there is no way but that. But if you check Romans 1:18 - 2:17, you will find that this section is very interesting. It is after the greeting and before the discussion regarding the Jews and the Law. In this section Paul talks about general revelation and man in general. And Paul talks about those who reject the truth several times. The famous part in the first chapter, but again in chapter 2. And here we find some startling things being said:

God will give to each person according to whqt he has done. To thosew ho by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor, and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking, and who reject the trut and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.

Let me offer something to think about. We are told we will reign with Him eternally, aren't we? Over whom?

Maybe these people. Those who have sought the truth and rejected evil because of the knowledge of the law, or of right and wrong, that God has put into the hearts of every man. When Jesus said HE was the truth, what else was He saying but that any man who was truly seeking the truth was also seeking Him? I know, but "no man seeketh after God." No, they were not seeking God, not that they knew, anyway. They were simply seeking the truth and rejecting evil. And there have been people like that since Babel.

I'm not offering that as theology, but as a thought.

A thought that might break through, hopefully, the arrogant and stubborn attitude that declares to the world "I, and those like me are saved, but the rest of you are hated by God and going to hell."

That is not the message Jesus gave. He said something entirely different. He said "Come to me, ALL ye that labor and are heavy-laden..."

And I have not seen a Calvinist deal with this verse. In the same way Jesus could be Lord, lunatic, or liar, we have those same three options, essentially, for this verse:

1. Jesus meant what He said and all who are weary are invited to Him.

2. Only those pre-selected by God are weary (I'm afraid this is the lunatic angle to me).

3. Jesus was not telling the truth.

Nor have I seen a Calvinist deal successfully with the fact that Jesus said that the angels of the little children always see the Father's face. Even Moses was not allowed that. That says something about the little children, I think.

It is our deep and incredible and undeserved privilege to be born in a time and place where the Gospel is known and taught. But that privilege for us does not mean the rest of the world and times are going to hell. Jesus created every man in His own image. He so loved the WORLD...

Yes, Melchizedek is definitely an example. A high priest of the one true God. He knew the Promise. He knew God. And He was outside of the special revelation given to Abraham. So we can figure that he is a unique individual in all of history or we can figure he was a type of all who have sought the truth with their whole hearts, maybe not always knowing where to find it, but then, God judges the heart, does He not?

When Abraham's belief was credited to him as righteousness, what was it he was believing? That God existed? He was TALKING TO HIM! That was not it. That he would have many children? Faith that you will have a lot of children is righteousness? No. Because righteousness is ONLY in Christ Jesus.

It was because the gospel itself was written in the stars for all men to see and to hang their hopes on.

I would be so bold as to warn those subscribing to the Reformed theological way of looking at other people that you be very careful not to imitate the Pharisee's prayer that runs along the lines of "I'm so glad you didn't make me like him/them, God! I'm glad you chose me and didn't leave me out, like THEM!"

Jesus mentioned that it was not that man, but the one who fell in abject humility before God saying "Be merciful to me, a sinner!"

This was not to Christ, but to the God of gods. And that is a God every society remembers.

My computer is going out. I have to reboot.

 

But, Helen. Isn't that exactly what you are saying?

The doctrines of election when rightly received kill any kind of pride or arrogance in the one who receives it. To think that I have been chosen--not on the basis of anything I have done or not done, but merely on the basis of God's sovereign choice--casts out pride and high mindedness. This realization inspires hope and fear. I tremble just thinking about it.

Your doctrines are just the opposite. I chose Christ. I believe in Christ. Pride and high-mindedness are alive and well in your doctrines, and your answers to questions such as the one that started this thread do not serve the Kingdom of Heaven.

"Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

You will no doubt tell me that "hated" here doesn't really mean "hated" as I understand it.

When you're done, I will tell you that "all" doesn't really mean "all" in the way you understand it.

 

Do not add to the Word of God with rationalism and human philosophies. God's Word is clear about this question.

Paul (by the inspiration of God) said, "16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. 17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse" (Romans 1:16-20).

When Paul says "it is the power of God unto salvation," he means "it" (the gospel) and "it" alone.

God is not responsible for people not hearing the gospel. He put that responsibility upon His redeemed. If people do not hear the gospel, it is because we have failed.

"12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things" (Romans 10:12-15).

 

[section removed for brevity]

Not necessarily.

What about the Native Americans who lived in North and South America before the early European explorers visited? Did the church "fail" for 1,500 years because they didn't know about the great land mass to the west?

As you said at the beginning, let's not add to God's word or ignore parts we don't like.

Paul taught that Abraham was saved without the Law or ceremonies -- Abraham "believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." There also was no preacher or religious institution to give him a verbal witness. God contacted him directly and Abraham believed. (See Genesis, Galatians and Romans to get the context.)

We are partners with God in the process of evangelism. God works where we cannot work (see John chapter 3 about the Spirit) and we represent God grace in skin.

All who are lost are lost because they have rejected the revelation of God -- no matter how much information they have.

All who are saved have received and believed the revelation from God -- no matter how much information they have.

All people are saved through Jesus Christ whether or not they know His name. That goes for Adam, Eve, Abel, Abraham, Simon Peter, Paul, you, me, and a great cloud of witnesses that I won't try to mention individually.

 

That's wonderful you were saved Aaron, and God sent a preacher to convery His message, but don't knock the power God has in reaching His own through "non-convential" means. Think about it. If someone told you that they were by seeing God's will for them in a burning bush, you'd probably think that they were nuts. Well...Moses recieved his calling in a burning bush. Our Lord's ways are mysterious to us sometimes. [/QUOTE]

No, I wouldn't think they were nuts. I'd know they were nuts. If not nuts then they were not seeing God.

Today as far as prophecies and visions are concerned, if they argee with the Bible, they're needless. If they don't, they're false.

 

If there were any other way to Heaven other than through the precious blood of the Lord Jesus Christ and repenting of ones sins and receiving Him as Lord and Savior--then God's trip to Calvary would be the blunder of the ages.

Salvation is not through the Big Dipper or the Grand Canyon--its through Jesus Christ alone!!

Your friend,
Blackbird

 

I don't think anyone was arguing against that, Blackbird...

 

Helen

I usually avoid responding to your posts, because as a Calvinistic type person I usually disagree with you, But you are very correct, IMO, on this issue. You might make a good Primitive Baptist after all.

Jeff

 

God saves who He wants, where He wants, when He wants and in whatever manner He choses and doesn't need to ask calvin or inquire into anyone's systematic theology to see if its OK to do so.

Luke 1:15 says that John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother's womb.

I'm not saying that John is the model of the work of salvation but he is at very least an example of what God can and will do when it pleases Him.

Genesis 18:25 ... Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

HankD

[ October 21, 2002, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

Wooooo, you go HankD

 

My personal belief is that God reveals Himself to everyone at some point or another, even if it's only by the testimony of His creation, and continues to show Himself to the extent that we respond to what we have seen.

The bottom line is that God has thrown the rope into the water. It's up to man to either grab on to it or drown.

No one will stand before God's throne and say, "But, God, that's not fair."

Mike

 

No one will be able to say that anyway. Since when is God obligated to throw a rope to people anyway? Who determines whether God is being fair? Oh yeah, man does. Man is always the answer isn't he?

People want God to respect their "freewill", but no one wants to respect his.

 

I think you're reading quite a bit into my post that wasn't there.

Mike

 

I did not read everyone's posts so I hope I don't repeat something.

First, Yes God will be revealed to everyone some how. It might be general or specific revelation. Everyone witnesses general revelation. It is upon that revelation a person either responds by searching out the truth of God, or they turn and walk away from the search. Their free will choice.

Secondly, Innocent people are always reaping from the sins of others. I believe sherlock 57 said something about that (I hope I got their name right). If a person doesn't tell their child a pot is hot and tell them to pick it up, it is the parent's fault, but the child reaps the pain. In other words, if Christians don't witness to the lost about Christ, who is responcible? Who reaps the punishment? You got it. That is why we must be willing to tell people the whole truth about Christ and the way, the only way to gain the promise of eternal joy and happiness with God, by surrendering your whole life to Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten son, so whosoever BELIEVES in HIM shall not perish but recieve everlasting life.

 

It is true that no one can be saved apart from Jesus. It is not true that we must have heard about it for it to apply.
Did Joseph know about Jesus before a word of scripture was written?
Did Rahab know about Jesus or did she simply come to faith by believing what she heard, as the Bible tells us.
Did Abraham receive a visit by a missionary, or did God save him because he believed Him?
Doesn't God save little babies who have never heard of Him?

Don't forget the sacrifices Job made for his children without their knowledge just in case they had sinned.

MR

 

Paul describes the human means by which people are saved. In Rom. 9 and 10, Paul is explaining specifically why his Jewish brethren are not all saved. Here he says that whether Jew or Gentile, God has ordained the preaching of the Word as the means by which the elect are brought to faith.

God has not ordained the end (salvation of his elect) separate from the means (the proclamation of the Gospel). On the contrary: God raises up and sends preachers. They preach the Gospel. The Gospel is heard. God's elect believe the Gospel and in Christ, whom it proclaims. They call out to Christ in faith, and they are saved.

Granted, God could just suddenly zap people with saving faith, knowledge of the Gospel, and an overwhelming desire to go to church, if he wanted to, and dispense with preaching entirely. But that is not the way he has chosen to do things. He has given us a part to play, as well. It is a great privilege to be used by God to bring the Gospel to his children - so great, in fact, that Paul can say that even the feet of God's ambassadors are beautiful (citing Isaiah 52:7).

This passage answers a common cavil raised against Christianity. What about all the people who never heard of Christ? Are they condemned merely for being in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Some people have answered this question in the negative. All men are given a "measure of faith," they say (citing Rom. 12:3). We are all responsible for responding to whatever light we have. The argument goes that God will judge all such men justly on the basis of their response to whatever revelation they do have. Of course, this argument is inadequate. Romans 1 says very clearly that all men have been given enough light to know that there is a God and he ought to be worshiped and obeyed. The problem is not with the lack of light; it is that men hate the light and love the darkness (John 1:5, 3:19), and by nature they would rather worship the creation than the Creator it points them to (Rom. 1:25). Moreover, if any argument kills evangelism, it is this one: after all, the pagans stand a better chance of getting into heaven on their sincere ignorance than if they hear the Gospel and reject Christ.

But Rom. 10:14-15 answers the question correctly. God has ordained the means by which his people will be saved. At the appointed time, he will raise up a preacher who will bring the Gospel to his elect. The purpose of God according to election shall stand (Rom. 9:11).

 

Ransom, you are just unloving, mean, spiteful, and it upsets me that you are so vicious. Why must you believe the Bible on this issue?

 

Jews before the coming of Christ were saved by their faith that God would send the messiah to save them. Aftter Christ was crucified the new standard came into play. The event happened so it is no longer a point of faithful expectation, it is belief of the fact that it did and total surrender.

Children/babies are provided grace through the age of accountability. Babies are unable to accept or deny Christ, they are not able to understand genaeral revelation or even the concept of God. God grants them grace because off their lack of ability to know who Christ is or what He did for them.

If not owning a Bible, being born out in the wilderness, etc are going to be valid excuses, then why did Christ have to die? Let everyone stay ignorant and get that free ticket to heaven.

Relativist thinking is just a way for some (note I said some, not all) people to feel more comfortable with non-believing friends or family dieing, an excuse to not witness to others or to feel better about their lack of commitment or full surrender to God. Rationalism never got anyone into heaven. I challenge anyone to find where Jesus ever said that because someone was ignorant that they would be granted eternal reward. Woman at the well, she trusted in Him, and what He said, man on the cross, he believed Jesus was Christ too.

Please consider and pray about your reasons why you think ignorance will gain one heaven. What has ignorance done to prove you are worthy of heavenly reward. Find biblical evidence of your feelings being right or wrong.