Stumped on a question asked by a friend

I guess Peter wasn't aware of this "doctrine."

1 Peter 3:1 "Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;"

Even if they refuse to go to church, even if they refuse to read the Bible, even if they refuse to have anything at all to do with God, they can still be won by the godly influence of a Christian wife.

Fear Not said:

I don't think anyone is advocating that ignorance will get one to heaven. What we are asserting is that God, in His justice and mercy, will give an opportunity for all men to be saved. All men may not take advantage of that opportunity, but no one will stand before God will a valid excuse.

Only those with a Calvinistic viewpoint offers a valid excuse. "God, I'm not going to heaven because You didn't choose me." Instead of, "God, I had an opportunity to be saved, but I failed to do so. It's my fault I'll not get into heaven."

Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men ,"

1 Peter 2:12 "Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation ."

John 1:9 "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world ."

I offered these verses on page 1 but all I received was human arguement and not a refutation of these verses.

 

Pastor Bob 63 said:

I guess Peter wasn't aware of this "doctrine."

On the contrary, it is Peter who authenticates Paul's writings as Scripture (2 Pet. 3:15-16), so no doubt he was aware of it.

1 Peter 3:1 "Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;"

Come on. Do you think that a Christian wife living with a pagan husband never mentioned Jesus or the Gospel to him? That by the conduct of his wife and nothing else he would convert to Christianity even though he could have no clue what a Christian was?

Nonsense. And even if it were true, nonetheless there is the influence of the Christian Gospel in his life through the conduct of his wife. We were talking about pagans who had never heard of the Gospel or Jesus at all.

Even if they refuse to go to church, even if they refuse to read the Bible, even if they refuse to have anything at all to do with God, they can still be won by the godly influence of a Christian wife.

Yes, and to that extent he is being preached to. You haven't refuted my point, you've proven it.

Only those with a Calvinistic viewpoint offers a valid excuse. "God, I'm not going to heaven because You didn't choose me."

More nonsense. This Calvinist believes the Bible, which says men have no excuse before God for their sins. No Calvinist claims that sinners can pull out the you-didn't-give-me-a-choice card on Judgment Day, though many people ignorant of Calvinism might say this.

 

All you have offered has been human argumentation.

Romans 10:17 - For faith comes by hearing and hearing by the (spoken) word of God.

Seems pretty clear. Perhaps you could explain that one.

1 Cor. 1:21 - It please God by the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Seems pretty clear. God has ordained one way for people to be saved.

Hebrews 1:1 - In times past... God has now spoken to us by his Son.

God used visions and dreams and other such methods. Since the coming of his Son though, he has used the Scriptures to convert.

Abraham did not have the Scriptures did he? In fact, none of it had been written.

Give me a break.

The real solution to the problem is not spending years in translation process for the heathens. The real answer is a chart of the stars. Of course, it would have to have lines joining certain stars so everyone would know what part of the story it is.

Stop printing Bibles in other languages. Just print the new and improved STARS TRACT.

Ooh, ooh, I know. We could videotape the stars one night during their preaching session. We can then take that to the heathen.

I sure wouldn't share my pulpit with one of those guys.

Out unlike sentamentalism that dictates theology.

 

So what about the blind heathens who can't see the stars? Or blind and deaf heathen? Are you saying God cares more about the seeing and hearing heathen than he does about the blind and deaf?

Out like intellectual consistency in a Baptist Board debate.

 

Seigfried, I worked with a blind/deaf woman for awhile. I was amazed at the ways God had touched her heart so that Christ was as real to her as He has ever been to anyone.

God has His ways...

 

Helen, that is our point. Romans 10:17 and 1 Cor. 1:21 are clear. I don't know why you and others ignore and/or twist them.

Btw, Jesus said that Moses is the one who wrote the Law. Is Genesis part of the Law? According to Jesus, who wrote the Law? According to Helen, several of the patriarchs wrote the Law. Btw, those passages don't mean what you are superimposing upon. Jesus does not share your opinion. I will stick to what he said.

 

The Magi were aware of the prophecies in Daniel. Please explain which star arrangement said when Christ would be born. This is all just so sad and troubling...

 

Are you saying Esau helped write Genesis? (36:1)

Why is it that no recognized authority mentions these contributors?

 

Aaron, they missed the message in the stars.

 

Is it just me or does this whole "God touches people's hearts" thing sound like Neo-Orthodoxy? I'm don't know as much about Karl Barth as I should yet, so I'll not be too dogmatic.

 

What does that mean, that a blind, deaf person can get saved without ever hearing the gospel????

"God touched my heard and is as real to me as he has ever been to anyone" is not biblical salvation. It's another gospel.

 

I think you will find that there is a subtle reference to Moses NOT writing the books of Genesis in Luke 7:22 --

Yet, because Moses gave you circumcision (although actually it did not come from Moses, but from the Patriarchs), ...

Every other reference to Moses but one that I could find in the New Testament referred to specific laws that came through Moses. This would be from Exodus on.

The one reference that differs in in Luke 24:27, where "Moses and the Prophets" refers to all of the Hebrew Scriptures as a customary way of referring to them.

Moses is credited by tradition with Genesis, and the Torah, the first five books, are put together as the Law and also the Law of Moses. But in the same way the older references to Isaiah included the writings of other prophets, reference to the Torah as the Law of Moses does the same. First of all, we know Moses did not write the chapter on his own death. We also know that he would not have been at all humble had he been the one who wrote about himself that he was the most humble of all men!

We also have several points in Genesis which are clearly editorial comments that Moses himself may have inserted when he was collating the written material he had that had come down from the patriarchs. You will see in Genesis 5:1 a distinct reference to the fact that this material is written, by the way.

Moses, as editor of Genesis in putting it together, is credited with the book. This is still done with editors who collect a series' of other's writings today. Thus, Genesis is grouped by the ancients with the direct writings of Moses, as all five books ended up coming as a group from him.

Jesus said no differently. He said the law was given through Moses, and so it was. During the sojourn in the wilderness.

Of course the Magoi (not 'magi' please!) were aware of Daniel's prophecies! Where do you think he had been a prisoner? Where was it that he became the chief of all the astrologers of his time? For several kings!

If you are serious about this question, however, (instead of just mocking me), here:
http://www.ldolphin.org/birth.html

It's 'reasonably' well-researched -- biblically and astronomically and historically. They all fit together, which is exactly what we would expect of God, right?

Aaron asked why no recognized authorities accept the Tablet Hypothesis (the name of it) of Genesis. They DO! I have posted on this SO many times, Aaron!

There is are two good URL's on the net regarding this:

http://www.biblemysteries.com/library/biblestudy.htm

http://www.ldolphin.org/tablethy.html

also

Oswald T. Allis of Princeton and later Westminster Theological Seminary
in "The Five Books of Moses" Presbyterian & Reformed (1964)

R. K. Harrison, Prof. of Old Testament, Wycliffe College, University of Toronto, "Introduction to the Old Testament", Eerdsmans, 1969.

Ishmael contributed his family's geneology in Gen. 25:12-18, which is incorporated into Isaac's account, which ends with his signature tolodot in verse 19. In a similar way, Jacob incorporated Esau's contribution regarding his family line into Gen. 36:1-43. Jacob closes his account in Genesis 37:2a. From 37:2b to the end the account was probably written by a scribe of Joseph's, since he became royalty and would have had a scribe to take dictation.

Seigfried, the woman I translated for (actually I translated for the deaf friend who knew the hand language for the deaf/blind, which I don't) was so excited to hear about Jesus. She was ready for it. She kept signing, "God told me there was something special. This is it. It is Jesus!"

I don't know how God spoke to her. All I know is that she immediately knew that Jesus was the truth and she grabbed on to Him in a way that would shame most of the rest of us. I remember feeling almost numb with shock. I believe she has died now; she was quite elderly when we were with her, and when my deaf friend moved, the contact was broken. But alive or dead, I know whose arms she is at rest in.

I don't know how God has dealt with the other blind/deaf in history. But I do know He has.

 

Helen said:

I think you will find that there is a subtle reference to Moses NOT writing the books of Genesis in Luke 7:22 --

Yet, because Moses gave you circumcision (although actually it did not come from Moses, but from the Patriarchs), ...

Erm, no, this is a reference to the fact that circumcision comes from the time of Abraham, not Moses.

But it doesn't call into question the traditional authorship of the Pentateuch. The most natural reading of Luke 7:22 would be along the lines that "Moses gave you circumcision because he wrote about it, but technically it doesn't come from Moses, but the Patriarchs [i.e. Abraham]."

[ October 23, 2002, 04:51 PM: Message edited by: Ransom ]

 

Praise the Lord that this woman trusted Christ and became a believer when she heard the truth of the Gospel. I say that in all sincerity.

 

There will be people in heaven, saved, from "every nation, tribe, people and language".

It appears that this truth in NOT in agreement with what many have posted here.

REV 5:6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. [7] He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. [8] And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. [9] And they sang a new song:
"You are worthy to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
because you were slain,
and with your blood you purchased men for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation.

REV 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. [10] And they cried out in a loud voice:
"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb."

 

Preacher Bob,
I agree that everyone will be given the opportunity to witness God. There is no doubt of that, but you have misse my prior point. They may recieve general revelation then it is upon them to search for the rest. For example, if you walked into your den and the floor was wet, you have to theorize what caused the problem, a spilled cup or maybe a leaky pipe or roof. The wet floor is like general revelation, it is a clue that a supreme inteligent organized creator exsist. the pursuit of the source of the water is like what the person is then responcible for once they witness general revelation.

 

How little can a person know about God and still be saved? The answer is given in scripture:

Heb 11:6
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
KJV

Doesn't Paul say that it is necessary to hear a preacher to be saved? After all, he wrote this:


Rom 10:14-17
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
KJV

But wait a minute, Paul of Tarsus, what about people in distant places that have never heard?

Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
KJV

Paul of Tarsus is here referring to Psalm 19

Ps 19:1-4
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world.
KJV

The point is: the general revelation is enough "preaching" so that many whom we would not expect to have "heard" the gospel, have, really, "heard" the gospel!

I don't take much stock in the "storyboard" idea that men used to have God's message told them in the constellations. Rather, the glories of the universe proclaim the glory of He who created the universe.

I do believe that our salvation depends on truly responding to the true Spirit of God when He encounters us heart to our heart, and is not a matter of uttering the correct phrases, as if we were saying a magic spell that has to be gotten right before the magic works.

Of course, it is only by means of the power of the atonement Christ made for us on the cross anyone can be saved. There will be some in heaven, however, that did not know, in this life, it was Jesus who came to their hearts

Let our preaching and witnessing be aimed at guiding people to be looking for God in spirit and in truth!

[ October 24, 2002, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: Paul of Eugene ]

 

What most people are saying in this thread does not agree with scripture. Can anyone address this?

The scripture says that people from "every nation, tribe, people and language" will be in heaven.

What many are saying here does not agree with this.

Why not?

REV 7:9 After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. [10] And they cried out in a loud voice:
"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb."

 

Well said, Paul of Eugene.
John MacArthur, in his commentary on Romans 1:19
said this--

===========
A disease left Helen Keller as a very young girl without sight, hearing, and speech. Through Anne Sullivan's tireless and selfless efforts, Helen finally learned to communicate through touch and even learned to talk. When Miss Sullivan first tried to tell Helen about God, the girl's response was that she already knew about Him-just didn't know his name. {Helen Keller, The Story of My Life}
============

His attributes HAVE been clearly seen, even by the blind.

When people stand before Him, the Bible is clear that no one will have an excuse.
Not even the deaf, dumb and blind.
Everyone has an innate knowledge of the Creator, but not everyone has heard of the provision He made for those who believe in Him.

While I do not have every commentator's works in my meager library, not one of the one's that I do have believe that God will condemn those who have not heard the entire Gospel simply on the basis that they have not heard.

MR