Eternal Security : Once Saved Always Saved ?

No. But one that is married can commit adultery, divorce their mate and marry another. We cannot make time go backwards, but we can change the future. If I can do this physically, why can't I do this spiritually? Indeed, this exact analogy is used in scripture.

Helen, what is your take on Matt 24:45-51? The text clearly says that there is a servant/Lord relationship in the beginning, even during the later evil actions and rejection of his Lord's words. But where does he ultimately end up?

Brian</font>[/QUOTE]Hi Brian,

Matthew 24:45-51 is referring to people like the Pharisees -- and perhaps a good many pastors today! These people 'serve' the Lord but they are not of the Lord. They are not born again, despite their positions in the church (or Temple). You will see many of the servants in this position today teaching exactly what Jesus said they would be teaching: "My master is stayng away a long time!" And so they, step by step, join the world and the world's ways.

Being a servant in position is not the same as being a child of God by spiritual birth in the Spirit. They can be the same, and we always pray they are, but the sad truth is they are not.

Also, Christ's bride is those who ARE born again -- His true church. When we are born again we become part of the bride of Christ. It is part and parcel of the same deal. And divorce? No, not hardly (kids' expression) -- being born again means having new desires; desires put in us by the Holy Spirit Himself living in us. One would have to desire or want to walk away, and that is not going to happen with the Holy Spirit inside!

I think the passages you are noticing are the ones which talk about losing rewards, not losing salvation. Rewards can be earned -- and/or lost, and this is what Paul warns us about. SOME will hear, when they see the Lord, "Well done, good and faithful servant." And some will not. Nevertheless, if you look at Matthew 5:19, you will notice that even if one teaches wrongly, if one belongs to Christ, one is heaven-bound. However you will also notice in that same verse that some are called 'great' in the Kingdom of Heaven. And some are not.

How am I doing?

 

Call me a legalist if you want to. I'm not, but whatever. If that's your experience, go with it. In *my* experience, OSAS believers usually are the legalists.

Isn't this self-evident?

I don't know. But it happens. Man can talk himself into all sorts of things.

You are changing what I disagree with. What I originally disagreed with was that "salvation is a lifelong, human effort". I was saved in the past, not by my own effort but by God's grace. But I have a responsibility to continue in my faith, and not turn aside as numerous verses say. Obtaining salvation itself is not by my effort, but I can still give it up later. Salvation is a two-parter. It is past (when you accept Christ) and also future (when Christ returns and we are glorified).

This is dangerously close to saying that if someone doesn't believe in OSAS, they must not have the Spirit in them to guide them when they read the scripture. Is this what you are saying?

I have met many others in the past who also have trouble distinguishing between what God said and their interpretation of what God said. Basically all you have told me is that you think you are infallible. On the other hand, I am willing to admit I don't have a perfect understanding of God or the scriptures.

You have to, if you believe that one can lose their salvation. For you believe that one has to "endure" for a length of time in order to be saved, which means works; whether you understand that or not.
</font>[/QUOTE]No, it doesn't mean "works", whether you understand that or not. Others may say that it does, but I am not.

No, I was speaking in the hypothetical, as an example if what you said was true, not that it is.
</font>[/QUOTE]Hmm. There must be a lot of hypothetical scripture then.

I agree it is impossible for God to deny himself. But it is not impossible for us to deny God. I've seen people do it, people who had previously and emphatically proclaimed their faith.

OK, then if it is good enough, are we then saved, or on probation?
</font>[/QUOTE]We are saved, just as we are married - we are not in probation just as we are not in "elongated engagement". Yet divorce exists.

Here's just a sampling:

1 Tim 5:15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.

2 Pet 2:20-22 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. [21] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. [22] But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

1 Tim 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Hebrews 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

2 Pet 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

I'd post more, but I fear I am wasting my time.

If I was hit by a bus before I was saved, I would have ended up with eternal damnation. I was *already* on that wide road that leads to destruction. The fact that I am saved *now* is proof you can change roads if you choose to do so.

God bless,
Brian

 

You are doing good. You're half convincing me. But I'm not there yet.

Why not? The Holy Spirit *guides* us, he doesn't turn us into robots. People get married all the time with the intention of never walking away, of never being unfaithful. But desires can change.

I have an uncle who was raised in a solid Christian church, who accepted Christ, was baptised, lived for Jesus, the whole bit. I even think he was OSAS. But several years later, he developed some friendships with some JWs, at first to debate them and witness to them. However, over time, he was turned. He started questioning his beliefs. Eventually, he rejected salvation as we know it, and fully embraced the JW cult. His wife remained in the Christian church, and this has been hard on their marriage - especially when he pulled the kids out of the church and forced them to got to JW meetings instead. He now actively fights against Christianity, he even refused to come to my wedding simply because he refuses to set foot inside a Christian building. I fully believe he was saved once. I fully believe he is not saved now.

I have another uncle who accepted Christ in Sunday School when he was young. He understood the gospel message. At 14, he began to get in trouble with the law. At 16, he ran away and lived on the streets. We ran into him once when he was in his 20s, when he came to ask for money. His life was three things: stealing, drugs, and prostitutes. He wanted our money, but he venomously rejected our prayers. I fully believe he was saved once. I fully believe he is not saved now (if he is even still alive).

Of course, no one can fully know if these two men were really saved at one point, and OSASers would say they weren't. But I believe that they were at one time saved, according to Rom 10:9. I believe they tasted and accepted the heavenly gift, but later in life spat it back in God's face.

[edited followup:]

Once I went out witnessing with some OSAS friends, before I fully understood what OSAS was. We met a man like my uncle, who said he had accepted Christ as a child, but now rejects Christ. Instead of continuing to witness to him and encourage him to repent and change his sinful ways, the leader spent *a whole hour* trying to convince the man that he had nothing to worry about, that he could reject Christ and it doesn't matter because of OSAS, which was then explained in great detail. I felt physically ill.

Brian

[ July 13, 2002, 06:39 PM: Message edited by: BrianT ]

 

In so many places the Bible speaks of everlasting life, and never perishing. I think someone said something about faith and grace one page 1. Well faith is the substance of things hoped for;the evedence of things not seen, and grace is unmerrited favour with God.
When trials come, sometimes we are a little short on faith. I supose it's because we aren't sure how that trial is going to come out. But there is always grace. Always God has enough grace to save another sinner. Remember, He said He wasn't willing any should perish. He wants everyone saved. {That dosen't mean everyone will accept Him, because He gave us free wills}
Jesus even told His deciples at time that they had little or no faith. But Yet John is know as "The deciple whom Jesus loved" and Jesus claimed that Peter was to be called "Cephas" ie:Rock. whitch He refered to as His church. 1 John 5:13 says:"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW THAT YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE..."
I don't know what I would do if everytime I made a mistake I had to get saved over agian. Why, I'd get saved 3 or 4 times a day if that were the case! I was saved 3 years ago, and don't doubt where I will spend eternity. When someone gets saved God gives them peace that passeth all understanding. We don't have to doubt. We can know.
In Our Saviour, Abby

 

Well, at last, proof that I am not a legalist as I believe what James 2:18 says; works are a proof of salvation, not a means of salvation .

I also believe Ephesians 2:10 that states we are God's workmanship and our works will be a testimony to our salvation.

Is this reply too pointed for some of you? Trying to be nice, but have never learned to compromise the truth.

Ernie

[ July 13, 2002, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: Ernie Brazee ]

 

Any comments on this passage?:

Col 1:21-23 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled [22] In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: [23] **IF** ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Note that:

1. Paul is talking to Christians
2. He says "reconciled" in the past tense, ie. they are already "saved".
3. They will be presented holy and blameless in his sight (future) "IF" they continue in the faith, and are not moved away.

If OSAS is true, why the condition ("IF") in this passage and others like it?

 

Hi again, Brian,

It's hard to know about people. I'm really sorry about your two uncles, and I hope your wedding was wonderful and beautiful and everything a wedding should be!

There are two things that come to mind before we go on to the other things, though.

1. I try to read through the Bible every year. Every year there is something new (more than one thing!) for me to learn. Last year, 2001, something sort of hit me from Exodus and the OT. When God gave an age limit for those who could enter the Promised Land and those who would have to die in the desert and not see it because of their unfaithfulness to Him, the age was 20. That was also the age of military conscription. That was also the age when the tax value of a male went up. Now I know that there are different ages of maturity for different individuals. But evidently God did not take the 'infidelity' of teenagers seriously. It was not until young people were out of their teens that their decisions meant something. What is interesting is that I have seen evidence that this may be exactly the way we are 'wired' as human beings. I have one daughter, for instance, who seemed to be the most devout and dedicated Christian in the world in her teen years, counseling others of her age wonderfully. I was really impressed! When she was about 18 she flipped around and ended up living with a guy ten years her senior, refusing to speak to us, lying constantly....what happened??? My second daughter was a little rebel from 6-16 -- ten years of hell on earth with one kid! She was 18 last week and she is the most delightful, wonderful daughter you can imagine now! She is talking about going into the mission field and wants to end up teaching music at the high school she now attends.

So I guess the first thing I would want to suggest is that, even though some people can trace their love of Christ and commitment to Christianity way back to early years or teen years, there seems to be a time in the very late teens and into the twenties when decisions are made which are more binding, the path one chooses then seems to be a far more permanent decision. My husband's parents were Salvation Army officers in Australia in the thirties, forties, and fifties. He, however, did not make a serious commitment to Christ until he was in his twenties. I, in turn could not have been raised more differently. My parents were not Christian at all. But in my mid-twenties, after years of being a 'sort of' Christian, there was finally a real commitment. My oldest son was 22. This story seems to repeat itself over and over among the young people I have seen grow up.

So while it may seem like a teen is really Christian, they are not even settled in their own lives about WHO THEY are yet! So as wonderful as teen conversions seem, wait for about ten years to see what the adult decision is!

2. It is very possible for a person to intellectually 'accept' Christ, meaning he agrees with the concept and plan of Christianity, but not be changed by Christ. There are so many scholars who know the Bible so well, but refuse its personal message! They can argue Bible all day long with glee, for the sake of argument. Some of them are pastors... And I don't think there is any way at all, short of the Holy Spirit actually revealing it to us, for us to know who all the fakes are. The problem is they don't even know they are fakes! It's just that they are trying to be "Christian" on their own. It doesn't work that way...

So when we try to look at different lives, it can be very confusing, just as you said.

As far as the Holy Spirit guiding us, it is far more than that. As Paul says in Romans, we are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. A slave isn't just guided, he is ordered and expected to obey! When we charge off in our own direction, we will be disciplined -- Hebrews 12. If we were NOT God's born again children, He would not bother disciplining us! The whole purpose of the Holy Spirit in each of us is to transform us, not just guide us. Slowly but surely each of us is being transformed into the image of Christ. He Himself puts the desires in our hearts that He then delights in fulfilling. We are not our own; we were bought with a price, and our lives -- those of us who are His -- are hid with Christ in God. I'm sure you recognize that verse, despite the way I changed it from singular to plural!

Sure our flesh still wants to do things, and sure there will be times of trial and temptation. But God will use them to mature us, not to lose us.

You mentioned about people like your uncles, "I believe they tasted and accepted the heavenly gift, but later in life spat it back in God's face." I believe you are exactly right! It doesn't taste good unless you ARE born again! And then you not only taste, but swallow, too. The spiritual thirst and hunger are really strong things and need to be satisfied with the water that tastes sweet to us and bitter to those not changed by God.

Perhaps that is one way of at least having a clue as to who is born again for sure: are they spiritually hungry and thirsty? Do they dig into God's Word WANTING to know everything it says? Take a look at the number of people on this board who talk about Bible, and then take a look at how few are actually contributing to the Bible studies below. Clint has one and I have the other. If we did not get emails and such thanking us, we would think we were talking to ourselves half the time! Now I know it is not necessary to contribute to a Bible study on Baptist Board to show your spiritual hunger and thirst, but it IS interesting that with so many people here, so few are interested in actual Bible. Maybe everyone does their own Bible study at home? I hope so...

About your experience witnessing with your OSAS friends: I would have been sick to my stomach, too. Only I would have been brash enough to speak up, probably, and would have made myself a real pain to those friends who were witnessing... When I see garbage handed out, I do have this strong desire to shovel it out of the way!

Your response would have been much more biblical, simply because we see so many people who are deceived by what MacArthur calls "cheap grace." "Say the magic words and zip boom you are saved!" There's just a little more to it than that, right?

Now for this part:

Yes, Paul is talking to Christians. Yes they are already saved. It is HOW they will be presented to Christ that he is talking about. Remember Matthew 5:19? Some are greater and some are least in heaven. Paul's desire is that those he is teaching should all be 'greater.' That they should all be presented both holy and blameless before God. It is important here to separate the 'reconciled' which is definitely past tense, from how each of us will be presented.

God bless.

 

legalism n. 1 strict, often too strict and literal adherence to law or to a code 2 Theology. the doctrine of salvation by good works - Webster's New World College Dictionary, Fourth Edition, Copyright 1999

Now, knowing what the formal and accurate definition of the word "legalism" is, it sheds light that people who believe in eternal security through faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ are most definitely not legalists; but rather people who do not are indeed the ones practicing legalism.

That is, if one understands what is is that those who do not believe in eternal security, actually believe.

"What constitutes to you as not having faith in Christ anymore?"

No, it's not. For, people who do not believe in eternal security believe that believing in Christ means to try and keep all of Christ's written commandments and so forth, "enduring till the end" while doing so, etc..

So, please tell me what you think believing in Christ means to you in order for you to become saved and to stay saved.

"And how can a person born of Christ, who has the Holy Spirit living inside of him/her, no longer believe in someone who is living inside of him and speaking to him 24/7?"

No, it doesn't happen, which is what the discussion is about. Just saying it happens is not proof of anything, and not scriptural.

"2) If you believe that one can lose their salvation, then at what time do you feel a person is saved to the point that they can no longer lose their salvation. If it is when one is in heaven, then you do indeed believe that salvation is a lifelong (upon the earth) continual process."

I have not changed anything. If you have a "responsibility" to stay saved, then you have indeed attempted to change salvation into a human effort. For our eternal life is not our responibility, but God's. You are trying to assist God in his salvation of you, and your answer reflects that you do indeed think of salvation as a lifelong effort.

And as I asked, when do you feel that you can finally be at rest, knowing that you will never lose your salvation? When you are in heaven?

That statement is a paradox. For if you can give it up, that means you have to make an effort to keep it, which means that it is indeed a human effort according to what you believe, which means you are trying to save yourself through works; whether you understand it or not.

Oh, so then it is not quite salvation until the second part? is that what you are trying to say? Does this then mean that the first part is just some type of "probation," and that we are not really saved until we qualify at the second part?

"God wrote the Bible in such a way that the natural man cannot properly interpret it."

They either don't have the Spirit, or they are not listening to the Spirit, or the Spirit has not yet taught them.

My analogy was not to show that I was "infallible," but to show you that a person cannot possibly know for sure what God means by what he has written, unless God, the author of the Bible, reveals to man what his interpretation is.

I'm sorry, but it most definitely does mean works.

I'm sorry if you are not able to comprehend what I am saying. Which is a perfect example of how the Bible can also be misunderstood by you.

Denying it with the mouth is not the same as denying it with the heart, and God looks upon the heart, where saved man, born of the Holy Spirit, can never deny Christ. His sheep will follow no other voice (John 10:5).

I ask you: If you end up in heaven, and you deny Christ up there with your mouth, do you believe that God will cast you into hell?

And how do you say a person is "divorced" from God? And if the saved can divorce themselves from eternal life, can the eternally dammed devorce themselves from eternal damnation?

Does that say "some saved have lost their salvation?"

Does that say that "some saved have lost their salvation?"

Does that say that "some saved have lost their salvation?"

Does that say "some saved have lost their salvation?"

Does that say "some saved have lost their salvation?"

Does that say "some saved have lost their salvation?"

I don't know what you mean by you "wasting your time," unless you think those verses are "obvious" and "clear," as I hear from every legalist that cites them, that there is therefore no point in you continuing because you feel as so.

However, as I asked you after each one of those verses, did a single one even mention salvation, let alone say point-blank that a saved person could lose their salvation, or did that require your own interpretation of those verses to assume such a thing?

The answer to that, is of course, the latter, as you have simply interpreted them into you already pre-conceived belief of salvation, and you have therefore stumbled just as God intended you to stumble. For you have not interpreted them through the Holy Spirit, but through your own natural understanding, and because of this you failed to properly interpret them.

I know what each one of those passages truly mean, and if you wish for me to interpret them unto you, then I will if you request it. However, until then I wished to make the point of how none of those verses actually stated point-blank as to what you are assuming they mean, but that you have merely interpreted them to mean that, through your own mistaken, natural understanding, not through the Spirit of God. For none of those verses even mentioned the word salvation.

This is proof that you had to interpret them into meaning that, and that therefore your interpretation is prone to error, seeing how you cannot even tell me what I mean by "the cat is green."

Can a person who has eternal damnation "change roads?" And if not, then how can a person who "HAS" eternal life change roads? Is eternal life not as eternal as eternal damnation?

God bless.

 

Hi Helen,

Thanks for the post, it has given me some things to think about. And yes, my wedding was great.

I know what you mean about about teens. However, it makes me think: if it is not until they are more mature that decisions are much more binding, what if people like my uncles were killed in car crashes before they turned from the faith? What if I was killed in a car crash before I made my more binding decision to remain faithful? BTW, the first uncle I mentioned (the one who became a JW) left the faith to become a JW when he was approximately 30 years old. Maybe in his heart, he never was serious about Christianity, I don't know - but all outward signs (his confessions and actions) seemed to indicate he was.

I appreciate you separating OSAS from "cheap grace". But apart from "cheap grace", what practical purpose does the OSAS debate have? If OSAS is true, whether I believe in it or not makes no practical difference if I strive to live my life for Christ and endure to the end. The debate becomes academic, does it not? On the other hand, of OSAS is false, many who DO live by "cheap grace" thinking they have a get-out-of-jail-free card might otherwise smarten up. In other words, if OSAS is true, there's no harm in disbelieving it - but if OSAS is false, there is potentially great harm in believing in it. Disbelieving it is "safer", if that makes sense.

I simply don't know. I'd like for OSAS to be true, but I can't get past all the warnings in scripture about remaining faithful, enduring to the end, etc. What do you think "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." (Matt 24:13) means? I take it at face value, and believe this verse implies that he that does NOT endure to the end will NOT be saved. Not that salvation is due to our human effort, because nothing we can do (including "enduring") can buy salvation. But once we are saved, we must not make a conscious decision to turn back. A dog can return to it's vomit (the dog had to swallow, not just taste, before it could vomit), and a spouse can get a divorce. I *know* that I am saved right now. But I also believe that if I consciously decided to reject Christ, Christ would not drag me kicking and screaming into heaven any more than I would put my wife in a cage if she tried to divorce me.

I can no longer discuss this with Ruht (sorry Ruht, I'm done), he/she seems intent on trying to get me to defend a position I do not hold, and is either twisting my words or simply not understanding me, or both. Maybe that's my fault for not being clearer, or more forceful. Either way, my dialog thus far with Ruht is exactly why I usually avoid participating in OSAS discussions.

Brian

[ July 13, 2002, 10:14 PM: Message edited by: BrianT ]

 

Brian, gotta go outside and see if I can get a little yard work done before it's totally dark. Not ignoring you. Back later. You have good points and I also want time to pray and think. And ask for wisdom! God bless you.

 

(This note is my edit: I just posted this and noticed a bunch of typos. My apologies. But I am really tired and will attempt to correct them all tomorrow. Thanks for your patience.)

I'm glad. Relatives can sometimes make things very difficult on occasions like that. God bless you both.

I have two answers here, one from me and one from the Bible.
1. God will always do what is right and best. Please don't worry about someone dying too soon! If you read 2 Peter 3, you will see the part where it says God is not willing that one should perish. He means that! And in Isaiah 57:1-2 we find something else from the Lord:
The righteous perish, and no one ponders it in his heart;
devout men are taken away, and no one understands
that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil.
Those who walk uprightly enter into peace;
they fnd rest as they lie in death.

I know that is not quite applicable to all this, but I thought you might like to keep it in mind anyway.

2. OK, go to Romans 7:7-11. Read it through, and then look specifically at verse 9. "Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died." That is not a statement you hear expounded on much! Reincarnation is not a possibility, so the only thing Paul can be talking about is spiritual life and death. In John 17:3, Jesus defines eternal life as knowing the only true God and Jesus Christ. So eternal death, logically, would be to NOT know them -- both times being in the intimate sense.

Hold on that and think about something else for a moment. In the Old Testament series of commanded sacrifices, there is one for the unknown/unintentional sin. In Hebrews we are told clearly that Christ is the one sacrifice for ALL time. That would include unknown and unintentional sins.

If we put that together with Paul's statement about being alive apart from law, then the only possible conclusion is that the little ones at the very least are His from the get-go, covered by Christ's blood in their sin natures as, according to Paul in verse 8, apart from the law sin is dead! That means it cannot kill the people who are unaware of God's law.

So the question becomes, when does a man actually die spiritually then? When does he become separated from God through knowledge and then intentional disobedience to His law?

Despite the nastiness I have seen in a lot of teens (I taught for almost 30 years), can I dare suggest maybe sometime around 20? Would the young person somehow, in all the confusion and mixed up thinking involved in growing up, somehow honestly not be able to comprehend the meaning of the Law? I don't know and I don't want to get into arguments about it with anyone. But when I start putting all this together, that appears as a real possibility.

All of which goes to actually say that you can trust God with anyone's life. He is just, fair, merciful, loving, and plain old wonderful. There will be no reason for complaint when all is opened for our eyes to see and our eyes are opened to be able to see it.

THIS is what I needed to think and pray about!

Yes, I think there is a profound difference. If you are always trying to make sure you are saved, then it is YOU at the center of your concerns, is it not? How is that honestly different from an unsaved person who is also trying to somehow be the best he can be in his world and his terms?

In addition, if you think your salvation can be lost, what does that say about Christ's love for you -- that He doesn't, somehow, love you enough? I'm still exploring these thoughts, so you may already have thought of them and have responses. If so, I am interested to hear them.

If, however, you are completely confident of your salvation and that it is in the very capable hands of Christ Himself, then you no longer have to worry about yourself! Then you can put your eyes entirely on Christ, and what He is asking of you. Then when you are disciplined as per Hebrews 12, you don't think that God hates you or something, you understand what is going on and you can thank Him for it even when something hurts, because you know He is raising you up and maturing you.

Perhaps if the whole thing were simply a matter of logic, you would be right. But it's also a matter of peace in one's heart and the joy He and only He can give -- one's entire attitude in life. And I think that might be the most major thing.

Here is a bit from 1 John 4:13-18

We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God. And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

Think about that a bit... look at the number of times the word "know" is used. He is making some pretty positive statements.

Jesus is not talking about salvation there. That was something that I had to understand at first, too. Look at the context. He is talking about the end times, first of all, right? Look at the order of what He is talking about and you will find He is literally outlining the first part of Revelation!

Matt. 24:4 Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming "I am the Christ," and will deceive many.

Compare with the first horseman of the apocolypse, Rev. 6:2: I looked, an there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest. This is the false Christ, the deceiver. The crown here is NOT the diadem of royalty, which is Christ's, but the wreath of competitive victory, which is what will belong to deceit in the last days.

-------

Matthew 24:6-7a: Youwill hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

Rev. 6:3-4: When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature say, "Come!" Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword.
--------------

Matt. 24:7 (middle): There will be famines...

Rev. 6:5-6: When the Lamb opened the third seal, I hear the third living creature say "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a black horse! Its rider was holding a pair of scales in his hand. Then I heard what sounded like a voice among the four living creatures saying, "A quart of wheat for a day's wages, and three quarts of barley for a day's wages, and do not damage the oil and wine!"

----------

continue Matt. 24, verse 7: ...and earthquakes ni various places

Rev. 6: When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!" I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! It's rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beats of the earth.

This last one doesn't fit quite as exactly, but the pattern is too obvious to ignore.

We are getting close to the verse that bothers you, though.

Let's keep going.

Matthew 24:9-11: Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many wil turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

Rev. 6:9-10: When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out n a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"

Who are these people? They are the ones killed in the Tribulation. In Daniel 9, Daniel has a vision and is given the meaning. It concerns 70 'weeks' for his people, the ones we know to day as Jews. The first 69 weeks have passed, they were finished with the crucifixion, when the Anointed One was cut off. There is one more week to go. Here is how it is described in Daniel:

The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with many for one "seven". In the middle of the "seven" he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he wil set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."

This is talking about the antichrist, the ruler who is to come who will destroy Jerusalem, make covenants with many, halt the sacrifices of the Jews which will have been re-enacted then, and finally set himself up as God, demanding worship to him. This is the seventh week.

In between the 69th and 70th weeks is us -- the 'church age.' But the church will be taken out of the way for the last week of the Jewish people.

Now go back to Matthew 24. Jesus is talking of this Tribulation time -- this last week. So who is He talking about in the verse that bothers you? Starting with verse 12, we read,
Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Who, then, needs to stand firm? Those Jews who finally look on Him they have pierced and mourn, understanding that Jesus of Nazareth was and is indeed the Messiah. It is to them this passage is written, not to us. We are the sheep now in our helplessness, but being raised up to be His bride later; but the Jewish people are always pointed to as His inheritance. In that last 'week' of seven years, during the Tribulation, they who demanded His death once and rejected Him who was theirs, will be put to death for Him, and they will have to stand firm about it. That they are listed as 'under the altar' means they are covered by His blood as well as we are.

There is one other possible explanation which is a little out of context but which squares with Matthew 10, when Jesus also outlines the end times for His disciples. In verse 22 we read, "All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. Here the implication is that they will be saved from what comes after, which is the Tribulation itself! This, then, is in line with Jesus' letter to the church at Philadelphia. You will find that in Rev. 3. Here is verse 10: Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep youfrom the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

So in the latter case, it is to be saved from the Tribulation and in the case of the Jews, if that is what Matthew 24:13 is referring to, that still makes it not us now.

That was a very long way to answer the best I could, but I didn't know a shorter way!

Let me ask you this, then. Can you imagine it ever in your heart to reject Christ now? Isn't that the most impossible thought in the world? You might kick and scream and holler about some circumstances He allows in your life, never believing at the time they are going to work for your good, and you may refuse to talk to Him for awhile like a hurt child. He will understand all that. But when you are born again, He is the core and center of your being! How can you walk away from the middle of you? He is IN you! He is your life now. And your life is hid with Him. How can you ever reject your own life? Fussing and hollering is one thing, but you won't ever walk away. If you try, He'll go get you, so that will be a waste of effort anyway! You are His, now and forever, when you are born again in the Spirit.

OK, your turn! And God bless you.

[ July 14, 2002, 02:42 AM: Message edited by: Helen ]

 

The real question is what does the "end" mean, and how does one "endure."

The "end," in regard to salvation, is the moment one is saved. For one has endured and will not receive eternal damnation:

"Receiving the end of your faith, the salvation of your souls." - I Peter 1:9

And one does not "endure" by trying to serve Jesus all of one's life (works), but by being covered by the finished work of Christ, his blood:

"Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ." - I Corinthians 1:8

"Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot." - I Peter 1:18&19

"By the which we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all...For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified." - Hebrews 10:14

"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." - Hebrews 10:39

God bless.

 

Helen,

I appreciated your response to Brian above. That account Brian gave made me sick also.

 

When Christ said he would present these "holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight," who or what was he referring to, in regard to who he would be presenting these "holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight," to? To what was he referring to that he had "reconciled?"

See if you are able to discern it:

"And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled." - Colossians 1:21

The legalist looks past many things in this passage, and only sees what he perceives is yet another example of someone being able to lose his/her salvation. Their fear of losing their salvation (doubt of Christ), and their ignorance in regard to how a person is saved, causes them to interpret the Bible into their already pre-conceived notions and opinions, not from the sure foundation of God - grace.

But standing upon that sure foundation, and waiting upon the Holy Spirit to interpret the Bible unto us, rather than our own, natural mind, we see that the writer of that passage was referring to the minds of the believer, the conscience of the believer. And that through true faith and understanding of our salvation, God is able to present us holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight, to our consciences, to our "minds," by our knowledge and understanding of what he did for us. For we must be "grounded" and "settled" in our faith, resting upon the "sure foundation" of faith in the blood of Christ. And we must be understanding of that faith, in order for our consciences not to condemn us, but rather to have faith in that what God has done is indeed good enough, and we are indeed saved.

"Who shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; for with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell we are at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves; Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a SURE FOUNDATION; he that believeth shall not make haste." - Isaiah 28:9-16

Isaiah prophesied about the error of the legalist, and the covenant of death they chose over life - justification through self-righteousness - and that, because they did not properly hear the word of God. Isaiah revealed their haste in interpreting scripture, interpreting it from off the sure foundation of the blood of Christ, from off of grace, the "rest" of God, the "refreshing."

And James once again prophesied of the same thing, the same sure foundation, and in the error of coming off of that sure foundation while interpreting scripture, of the failure to put line upon line, and precept upon precept, of the failure to remember that one is saved by grace, and not by works, while trying to interpret scripture; if you are able to discern it:

"But be ye doers of the word, and not just hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." - James 1:22-25

God has said that we are saved by grace, not by works. Not EVER by works. That we are only saved by faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ; by GRACE. Therefore the man who continues to believe this, who continues to stand upon this sure foundation, the "perfect law of liberty," not interpreting difficult scripture in haste, but standing sure on that sure foundation of liberty (grace), and waiting for the intepretation of the Holy Spirit, will be blessed in his deed, and have his eyes open to the true interepretations of the scriptures.

However, the person who waivers in his faith in Christ, will come off of the sure foundation of grace, and because of that will interpret scripture in haste, thus resulting in his misinterpretation of scripture, and thus embracing the convenant of death - which is salvation by works. For those who do not stand sure upon the sure foundation will therefore not have faith in that sure foundation - the blood of Christ - and will then turn to self-righteousness, the effort of trying to serve God through their own physical effort of endurance and servitude.

However, by our own works man is not saved, nor is he kept saved. But only through the work of Christ is man saved. And whosoever has faith in that work, has ceased from his own works, as God did from his; as stated in Hebrews 4:10.

God bless.

 

Wow Helen, I feel a bit bad that you are spending so much effort on this with me. But I appreciate it. I mean, your last post was a whopper in more ways than one. And when I saw the time that you posted, well I was simply amazed. Please don't feel you have to spend this much effort on this discussion, or respond this quickly: we all have lives offline and little old you-and-me are not going to solve a debate that has been running for centuries. I'm content with a bit of friendly discussion that makes us both think.

I think it's possible to be in line with the second paragraph, and still not be OSAS. I think that, because that's me. I'm note "always trying to make sure I am saved" just as I am not always trying to make sure I am married. My marriage, and my salvation, is secure whether I am working at improving my relationship (with God or with my wife), or whether I sit like a bump on a log. I don't need to actively "preserve" either by my own effort (but of course, effort only improves things). But I still think free will plays a part. If I consciously decide to walk away, can I not?

Again with free will, I think Christ's love is shown in that he would let us give up our salvation if that's what we actively chose. I've heard univeralists say to me, because I don't believe *all* men will come to salvation, "Doesn't Christ love them enough?". That's basically the same thing I hear you saying, and my response is the same: forcing someone to be with you against their will is not love. Why didn't God "love" us enough to make us robots instead of humans in the first place? Because he loved us more than enough - he gave us free will.

About Matt 24:13

Yes, end times is the context (and I have noticed the parallel with Revelation too, that's another great topic of discussion), but it was also spoken directly to the apostles, the first members of the "church". I think the principle is applicable to all Christians since the time of Christ. I think it *is* about salvation, and is for Christians.

I'm trying hard not to let this comment side-track the discussion. But I must admit that it makes me *very* uncomfortable to select passages of the NT and say they are not for us.

I appreciate your comments about Matt 24, but have to tell you that I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture. Thus, since I am disagreeing with the premises presented, I'm not going to agree on the conclusions. Maybe we need to settle that debate before settling this one is possible.

Yes, it is an impossible thought. But it is also the exact same thought everyone has about their spouse when they get married. And when two are married, they become "one flesh", just as Christ is "in us". Their marriage is "secure": they don't stop being married just because they may later get upset with each other, or become complacent, or are apart from each other for an extended period of time. But the bond *can* be broken, through a conscious decision.

If you carried this over to the marriage analogy, it sounds very scary. You would not call that "love", you would call the police.

Brian

 

Sorry Rhut, but I cannot even read your messages. I try, but I get too hung up on the thinly veiled condescension and insults to objectively think about the points you are trying to make.

 

Hi Brian,

It was worth the time to think my way through that. And please understand that I am on the west coast, so the time posted is three hours later than I am experiencing. I was not THAT dedicated last night! It did leave me too tired to do the Bible study, though, so I will do double tonight.

I have appreciated the insights into how your mind is working on this, and thank you. I'm not Calvinist by any means, but I don't agree with you on the free will as far as you extend it. I don't think we have the power to act in accordance with our free will, just the freedom to want. We can only follow through when God allows and, in many cases, enables it. A picture I have also used to explain to my kids and the teens I have worked with is that you can choose to jump out of a plane, but you sure can't reverse that choice once you have jumped! You can want to reverse it, but you can't. That's kind of a negative way of putting it, because jumping into God's arms, if you want to call it that, is a very positive thing, but it is just as irreversible.

About the marriage and divorce idea -- here on earth it is two sinful people struggling, sometimes, to keep their vows and maintain their marriage despite finances, and kids, and so many other things. But marriage to Christ is so utterly different -- there is no sin involved. There is a purity to it that we can only vaguely imagine here and now. The commitment is for real and forever on His part, and one of the reasons for being born again is so that it can also be for real on our parts. We really cannot compare it to our marriages here on earth!

In the long run, for me, I know I am a silly old sheep, often following my nose into difficult situations from which I need rescuing. And He always rescues me, and sometimes I even learn from it! I am utterly, absolutely dependent on Him, and He knows that and handles me accordingly. I know I am His for good and forever.

Just one last note -- if I was ever going to have turned away from God it would have been when my husband left me. Just walked out with a four day notice, no counseling, no warning, to be with another woman. I had been praying for our marriage to improve for years, literally, and suddenly, so fast, every one of those prayers and hopes was dashed to the ground. I was left with no immediate income (at that point I had quit teaching professionally to homeschool the kids), six children ages 6 to 17, and a heart that felt like it had undergone an amputation without anesthetic. I did not know I could endure that kind of pain.

Why had God refused to answer my prayers? I didn't know, but I knew He was the only one I really could turn to, no matter. And every night I cried. And every night I would put on Christian tapes softly to keep my focus on the Lord as much as possible.

And God took me, healed me through the years that followed, and built up my faith in such a personal way that I have no doubts ever about the permanency of salvation. He walked me through my own private hell. And then He gave me a bit of heaven on earth with a new marriage to a man who loves Him first and me more than any other human being on earth. I didn't know I could be loved like this this side of heaven.

God has been utterly faithful to me. My salvation is totally sure and in His keeping. That's a bit of personal testimony.

I pray you will have something less painful but just as binding to let you know you are totally His forever, too.

God bless you.

 

Hi Helen,

I'll answer more later, but I just wanted to leave you a quick note: I was unaware of your marriage history, and I really apologize for mentioning marriage so often. I hope you realize I never meant to hurt, and I hope I didn't. I'll also send you an email later.

Brian

 

Ruht, I couldn’t agree with you more…. You stated that,

Amen! I think Peter says it best in II Peter 3:16

May all come to the truth of the Gospel of Grace Some have not this knowledge....

 

Amen and amen, Graceforever, excellent touch of scripture, and of the confirmation of Peter to the hidden wisdom of God written of by Paul through the Holy Spirit.

Once one understands grace, the entire Bible opens up into something that has never been seen before by the natural man. Those who have seen grace understand the legalist all too well, as most of us were all legalists at one time, whether in small measure or great, until the Lord dealt with us in our hearts - and some of us even in another supernatural - and opened our eyes to his grace. Paul was a legalist of legalists, and an unsaved one at that, and what a perfect choice of God to use him to reveal those epistles which God intended for us to have. For I tend to believe there is proverbally no stopping the staunch, former legalist from preaching grace, once he finally sees it.

Grace is the secret place of the most High, talked about in Psalm 91:1. It is written from the beginning of the Bible unto the end of the Bible, but it can only be discerned through the Holy Spirit. Many babes in Christ cannot see it yet, and many are practising legalism; as revealed in Galatians 3:1-3. However, their day will come, sooner or later, and the veil will come down and they will understand their mistakes, if they are saved.

Praise God for the holy, precious blood of the Lamb without blemish, the secret place of the most High.

God bless.