hardening of the heart and drawing man

if God hardens someone's heart, is mans free will able to repent and turn his own heart toward God? do you believe that a hard heart makes a mans will opposed to God? since Gods hand is on the hearts of kings, does this make mans free will under Gods authority or does man have the ability to seek God on his own, or is mans choice based on how much grace God allows one to respond to the gospel. how do arminains reconcile mans free will choice based on refusing Gods drawing power?
is there any biblical support for man refusing Gods drawing power?

If unregenerate man is a slave to sin, where is real free will?

Can a leopard change its spots?

Charlie

I can't believe that anyone who accepts the total depravity of man can argue for God "hardening" the heart. That's like saying "God sees that man is hardining his heart against God and acting wickedly - but not wickedly enough - so God hardens the heart of man in addition".

Some Arminians argue that man is "neutral" and in THAT CONTEXT alone - God coming in and hardening the heart of some - would be "unfair" since this act of God would preclude them from choosing life - on their own if God had not hardened them.

In other words you would have to BE that specific type of Arminian to swallow the Calvinist argument that is attempted there.

As it is - Jerermiah 5:3 and Isaiah 26:9 explain this Arminian concept perfectly.

In Jer 5:3 the Chosen Holy Nation of Israel is directed by God's judgments to turn from evil - and by rejecting "God's correction" they harden their hearts in concert with that act of God. The Holy Nation, sovereignly selected - the chosen nation - harden their hearts.

Isaiah 26:9 and Hebrews 12 make the point that it is by sending the rod, the judgments that God turns the heart from evil. Those whom He loves He chastens. That is also the SAME process that hardens the heart of the one who chooses to "reject correctoin" Jer 5:3 and so we see in Exodus 7-10 that Pharoahs "heart was hardened" and "Pharoah hardened his heart" 8:15,22 and also "God hardened Pharoahs heart" via the judgments sent and the correction "rejected".

In Christ,

Bob

Great point!

Does the Bible ever say that God 'hardens' a man's heart?

Eric, as you can see - the point leaves the Calvinist view without a response.

I am waiting to see if anyone picks up the point and attempts to restore Calvinism's view of "hardening" within the context of already being totally depraved.

the Arminian view assumes the Jeremiah 5:3 principle of hardening vs Isaiah 26 and correction.

The Calvinist view - assumes the absence of it all - even of their own acceptance of "total depravity".

A tough spot for our Calvinist friends - lets see if they respond.

In Christ,

We can certainly say that the Bible teaches that God hardens the hearts of certain people for a specific reason, besides the natural depravity they already possess.

Exodus 4:21(NASB)
21 The Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

Deuteronomy 2:30(NASB)
30 “But Sihon king of Heshbon was not willing for us to pass through his land; for the Lord your God hardened his spirit and made his heart obstinate, in order to deliver him into your hand, as he is today.

Joshua 11:20(NASB)
20 For it was of the Lord to harden their hearts, to meet Israel in battle in order that he might utterly destroy them, that they might receive no mercy, but that he might destroy them, just as the Lord had commanded Moses.

Romans 9:18(NASB)
18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

Gee, that sounds like election.

IF you actually "believed" that man himself is spiritually "netural" and that it is God who hardens man or causes him to yield THEN you could get election from that - without much work.

But if you believe that man is "already" hardening "His own Heart" without God "causing him to reject God" - then you have a problem.

But if you are Arminian and accept the Jeremiah 5:3 principle that God causes hardening by sending reproofs/judgments of "correction" (as we also see in Heb 12 - God does for those whom He loves. ANd by rejecting those judgments (as did the egyptians - and as did the Chosen people of God in Jerermiah 5) man is hardening his heart - then you also see the part God played in that.

Eyes open to the teaching of scripture on this doctrine will discover information in more places than just Romans 9. They will combine the teaching of Romans 9 with Jeremiah 5 and Isaiah 26 on this same topic.

All scripture is inspired by God and to be used for doctrine.

In Christ,

Bob

To be true to the Calvinist points made here - I should alter the "Calvinist future scenario" I posted where the father of the girl being tormented in eternal fire - cries out to God in anguish...

"Oh my God, my Lord and Savior! Couldn't you have done SOMETHING to save my precious child?"

And God responds with that answer that Calvinism so promotes - "Why of course I Could Have my child - IF I had Card To".

And then the hapless father could reply to God - "In the case of my own precious daughter - do you mean that you simply did not Care to draw her as she hardened her heart (as would all humans by nature)? Or are you saying that You actually actively Hardened her heart for her - instead of your normal practice of simply not caring as she hardened her own heart.

What form of indifference to her suffering are you taking so that I too may learn and express it? I so want to be like you."

I suppose to be correct - I would need to include that option that is so explicitly stated here on this board by our Calvinist bretheren.

In Christ,

Bob

If one looks at the examples from Scripture I provided where it is stated that God hardened someone's heart it is stated to be for a specific purpose that God is carrying out.

Hardening does not cause damnation and has absolutely nothing to do with the idea of the eternal tormenting in hell of sinners by God.

[ December 22, 2002, 03:20 PM: Message edited by: Ken H ]

It is amazing Bob, how uninformed and how out of touch you can be with something you vehemently disagree with. You speak as if you have vast reams of knowledge; you write as if you are a auto mechanic addressing quantum physics. The issue of Calvinism is one that I haven't seen you here address. You have lots of cute little stories, heart rending scenarios, and the like but you seem not to want to address the point of whether our God is in the heavens doing whatever he pleases (Ps 115) or whether or not he is working all things after the counsel of his own will (Eph 1:11). It has apparently bypassed you to consider that "God chose us for salvation before the beginning of the world" (2 Thess 2:13) "that we should be to the praise of the glory of his grace" (Eph 1:4, 6, 13). You write as if God has to answer to man, as if salvation is all about man and his feelings. God plainly contradicts you.

As to the question of whether or not God hardens man, the Scripture is clear that he does. The God who elects also hardens and increases the damnation. Your thinking is flawed because you do not reckon with the clear text of Scripture. You insist, for some reason, that God conform his ways to your finite mind. I must confess I don't buy that kind of approach to Scripture. I suggest we let Scripture speak for itself and let God be God.

I have approached this in two parts.

#1. I have given volumes of scripture supporting the view that "God Draws ALL mankind" to Himself and is not willing for "ANY to Perish" - that "God So LOVED the WORLD" that God "Is the Atoning sacrifice for .. the sins of the world".. etc.

#2. I have also "shown" the case of Calvinism IN a scenario where "Callous disregard for the fate
of the lost" is not possible.

And that is "a problem" since we have here some who rely heavily on a "solution" that requires that disregard as in...

Pastor Larry
You have lots of cute little stories, heart rending scenarios, and the like but you seem not to want to address the point of whether our God is in the heavens doing whatever he pleases (Ps 115) or whether or not he is working all things after the counsel of his own will (Eph 1:11).

Click to expand...

This "doing whatever He pleases" idea is a gross oversimplification of the infinite plans and processes of God.

For example (as I have already given)- God Sovereignly CHOSE to enable free will - Choice for Lucifer and it "cost Him" 1/3 of the Angels - whom He created perfect, whom He loved.

(Is that "really" just whimsically "doing whatever He pleases" - some think so).

God "Sovereignly CHOSE" to enable FREE WILL and CHOICE for Adam and Eve. That "cost Him" 100% of humanity and then to SAVE humanity it "Cost Him" the torture/suffering/death of His own Son.

(Is that "really" just whimsically "doing whatever He pleases" - some think so).

God "Sovereignly CHOSE" to enable FREE WILL and CHOICE for lost humanity by "DRAWING ALL MANKIND" unto Him. That "cost Him" the loss of the Holy Nation, the Royal Priesthood, His Sovereignly chosen Priesthood that was supposed to evangelize the world.

(Is that "really" just whimsically "doing whatever He pleases" - some think so).

Yes God is Soveriegnly CHOOSING a course of salvation that is at very great "cost" to Himself - for what? So ALL Angels - even Lucifer can "choose"? So ALL intelligent life EVEN Adam and Eve and "choose"? So all mankind - EVEN Israel can "Choose"?

AND YEt does He really STILL "So Love the World" that He is really "Not willing for ANY to Perish"??

Yes.

IN Christ,

Bob

[ December 22, 2002, 07:44 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
That "cost Him" the loss of the Holy Nation, the Royal Priesthood, His Sovereignly chosen Priesthood that was supposed to evangelize the world.

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Could you explain what you mean in that sentence?

Originally posted by BobRyan:
He is really "Not willing for ANY to Perish"??

Click to expand...

Does God always accomplish what He wills?

Hardening does not cause damnation and has absolutely nothing to do with the idea of the eternal tormenting in hell of sinners by God.

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Huh?
Then why do Calvinists keep quoting Rom.9:18 in regards to damnation vs. election?

As I said, the examples of hardening such as Pharoah show that the hardening is for a specific purpose. The hardening of Pharoah resulted in the 10 plagues that left no doubt that God is stronger than pagan gods and also allowed the Israelites to plunder the Egyptians as it made the Egyptians quite eager to get the Israelites out of their country.

Originally posted by BobRyan:
That "cost Him" the loss of the Holy Nation, the Royal Priesthood, His Sovereignly chosen Priesthood that was supposed to evangelize the world.

Click to expand...

Ken
Could you explain what you mean in that sentence?

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Israel is the Holy Nation, Royal Priesthood (teachers of God's Word for mankind) sovereignly chosen by God according to Deut 10:15, Exodus 19:6, Isaiah 65:42, 43:20. (Peter puts it all together in 1Peter 2:9).

God started out loving Adam and Eve - "All mankind" and when they fell - He continued to "So love the world".. His Will has always been "That no one should perish but that ALL should come to repentance".

His royal priesthood was therefore given the charter to be "A Light to the Nations" Isaiah 42:6-7, 49:6-7. God's entire purpose was to send the message that Salvation was coming From - shining out form - the Jewish nation - that ALL would be lead to Glorify God through the witness/testimony of that Holy priesthood Ps 67:6-7 John 4:22.

They were to be a teaching body - Jeremiah 12:16 to the Gentile nations.

Hint "God did not suddenly start - so loving the world 2000 years ago".
------------------------------------

But then in Matt 23:37-39 we find the final end pronounced on that sovereignly chosen - elect, nation church. Christ pronounced the curse of 1Kings 9:6-9, Jer 22:5, Micah 3:11-12.

By Drawing them to God BUt also allowing them "Choice" the door was opened and they eventually CHOSE the course described in Matt 23.

Romans 11 makes the SAME point about US- 'They fell because of unblief - and you stand only by your faith..so FEAR..If God did not spare them NEITHER will He spare You".

The argument is that we are grafted IN as REPLACEMENTS in the SAME position they used to occupy and that WE TOO could also choose rebellion and then God would remove US as He did them.

By ALLOWING them to CHOOSE - the end result was the risk - the loss of that "Holy Nation" - that "Royal Priesthood" and the need to replace it.

In Christ,

Bob

In Christ,

Bob

As I said, the examples of hardening such as Pharoah show that the hardening is for a specific purpose. The hardening of Pharoah resulted in the 10 plagues that left no doubt that God is stronger than pagan gods and also allowed the Israelites to plunder the Egyptians as it made the Egyptians quite eager to get the Israelites out of their country.

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This I agree with, and is what I have been saying all along, but then that shows the issue is not the point of difference in the Calvinist-Arminian debate, and it cannot be used as a proof-text for the Calvinist position.

[ December 24, 2002, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]

Originally posted by Eric B:
it cannot be used as a proof-text for the Calvinist position.

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Agreed.