Saved in the womb...........

I am reformed in theology, without question. Spurgeon was a leader in reformed theology. Yet he prayed once, "Lord, save the elect and elect some more." (Spurgeon's Biography) He also demonstrated the divine and human side of election and free will by saying, "There is the great arch at the gates of heaven. As we enter we read, Whosoever will may come...Inside we read, Elect from before the foundation of the world.
I must confess, there are so many questions that remain in all theological systems, and this includes our biblical studies..so much we do not know.
As a young minister, I was called on to conduct the funeral of an infant child. Both parents were solid believers. I was asked directly whether or not their infant child would be in heaven. This is when all one's theology comes to naught,,,we are struck with reality. We must answer a dear heart who is mourning a loss.
I suppose the direct answer is I don't know....not much comfort to two loving people, dedicated to Christ, and faithful servants. Frankly, I told them their child would be in heaven. I could not personally conceive of God abandoning them at this critical moment, and that God's love covered that infant child.
Under covenant theology, where they equate circumcision with infant baptism, and the covenant promise of regeneration, the infant would benefit the joys of heaven.
Do I think the same after 56 years? I will not answer that question. I will say this, the pastor must be loyal to truth as he knows it, but he must also have a heart that reaches out to God's people in the spirit of love.
My friends, I will take this love over all my theology, and I will stand before my God unashamed that I have kept His word, and done His bidding to the best of my ability.

Love in Christ,

Jim

 

Maybe leaping in his mother's womb was the infant John's expression of faith......

[ September 02, 2002, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]

 

Hi Scott. Thank you again for your comments.

You said, “Have you always been saved? No! You have however been one of the elect (Since the foundation of the world).”

Yes! I have always been saved. You cannot be “elect” and yet not saved. You are saved the second you were elect! According to Eph. 1: 4 that occurred before the foundation of the world – not on some time-line of earth history. Rom. 8: 29-30 shows this is so.

You said, “With all due respect, you again are confusing election with that of the time regeneration occurs.”

Actually, you are confusing being “called” with being “elect.” Jesus made it clear – they are different (Matt 22: 14) “For many are called, but few are chosen.” Those who are chosen are GLORIFIED simultaneously with no “time-line” required (Rom. 8: 30).

You said; "see Hebrews ch 11. OT saint looking towards the cross, NT saint looking back."

Where does it say anything about the cross in Hebrews 11? I can’t find it. Please state verses. Heb. 11 mostly speaks about “faith.” The idea of “looking forward” to the cross would not provide salvation in any event. Only the power of the finished Cross can provide salvation. Fortunately for the OT believers, the action and power of the cross ALREADY occurred PRIOR to the OT timeframe of these men, before the foundation of the world, as Rev. 13: 8 clearly teaches.

“Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” Heb. 11: 1. This “NOT SEEN” evidence echoes what Eph. 1: 4, and Rev. 13: 8 are speaking of. It is pure faith. It is the cross not YET seen yet fully active, it is the election not yet seen yet fully in power. The evidence IS Eph. 1: 4 and Rev. 13: 8.

You said, “Ok.......elect babies go to Heaven and Non-elect babies perish?”

According to your theory, yes. Yours requires a time-line when the baby “accepts.” Obviously a baby in the womb does not have the mental capacity to “accept the LORD.” Your way would doom the baby! However, wonderfully the LORD can SAVE that baby from the foundations of the world, as I have argued is the case with Eph. 1: 4, and Rev. 13: 8. This is PRECISELY how that baby gets saved. There is no other way.

latterrain77

 

My Conception of Salvation is Towards Those Who Hear and Believe. Suffice to Say Babies Know Nothing. There Is No Language. There Is No Understanding of Sin. There Is No Acceptance Of Substitutionary Death.
The Process Of "Salvation" is One Much Like The Outlay Of History..
God Draws Man. Man Is Innocent of Understanding.
God Introduces Law. Law Convicts Person. Person Admits That They are Sinner.
God Introduces Propitiator..Jesus The Christ.
Holy Spirit Seals
Believer Enters Process Of Sanctification
Believer Rests In Complete Work Of Jesus As Lord and Savior.

Thats A Far Cry From Imputing Righteousness At Birth by just existing in the womb.
Legally ...it Repent and Believe. We Are Born with original Sin into a world of Death.
We Die To Self As Understanding Ourselves To Be Sinners.

Or we go out on a limb of Faith and Say God The Father Imputes Righteousness on people who dont deserve it.... who dont comprehend repenting and believing in a propitiator.
That Theres Two Ways of Being Saved

Only One Person Was Ever Saved From The Womb...Jesus and he came with his own sinless body. The only Person to Not Have The Curse From Adams Original Sin.

Me2

 

Double Post...Sorry

[ September 02, 2002, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: Me2 ]

 

This verse is often read with poor understanding. If you read a little bit further in Eph 1:11, you will find that he is NOT talking about "individuals" being elected. He is labeling the whole group of "Christians" as the "Elect". In verse 12 it is made very clear that a group who is the "first to first to hope in Christ". To think otherwise would cause tremendous conflict all through scripture.

These passages just means that God new the Elect would be created and saved. But who gets to be part of the Elect is up to the individual. Now God has chosen some (very few) to have special places in history such as David, and Jeremiah, we see them saying such and in a way that would indicate that it is not the norm for God to have called individuals for special missions on earth.

Eph 4: 11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

 

Hi Scott. Thank you again for your comments. I’m sorry we see this so differently. Of course I appreciate your thoughts and your taking the time to respond.

When a person “accepts” Christ, it is just one of many evidences that he was already saved, and this salvation already occurred before the foundation of the world. “Ye must be born again” (i.e. born from above) has NOTHING to do with our profession of faith and everything to do with being saved by GOD, which GOD accomplished for us before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1: 4, Rev. 13: 8).

You have still not answered my question about a baby in the womb. How does a baby in the womb make his or her profession of faith, which you insist must occur? I have said a baby in the womb is Saved by GOD, from before the foundation of the world. So, it is my position that a baby in the womb CAN become saved by this method ONLY. Your way makes it impossible for that baby to become saved since your way insists that the baby must make a profession of faith – which of course is impossible given the mental capacity of a child in the womb. Please answer this question.

You have still not answered my question concerning Hebrews 11. You said in a prior post that Hebrews 11 had to do with the CROSS. Where? It is unquestionable that without the cross there cannot be salvation. No one, including the OT saints, can become saved without Christ’s work on the cross. Without the cross, sins would be UNPAID for. Rev. 13: 8 and Eph. 1: 4 resolves the issue of the cross for Old Testament saints. Your way makes their salvation dependent on something that is WITHOUT the cross. If you are saying that salvation can occur without Christ’s work on the cross, then please tell me how this is so. What “5000 year program” are you speaking about?

Rev. 13: 8 says, “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” (Rev. 13: 8).

Question for you. At what time was Jesus slain? Was he slain from the foundation of the world, or not?

latterrain77

 

How was Christ slain from the foundation of the World? In God's mind. Therefore in God's mind the plan of salvation was conceived. This plan was conceived from the foundation of the World.
God Chose that men would have the opportunity to be saved before the world was created.

Many are called to repentance but they do not repent. They make no move to acceptance of Christ. They do not heed the call of the spirit of God therefore they reject the call and therefore they are not chosen. It is written that God is not willing that any should perish but all should come to repentance. If we look at this scripture in light of teaching I hear consistently on this board who say that people are chosen by God to serve him and have no choice in the matter then this scripture would tell as that all will be saved and none will perish for this is God's will but that scripture does not state this no more than other scriptures say that only those who God chose will saved. We have the word all in the one scripture.

Jesus said the Father draws then turns around and says that if he be lifted up from the Earth he would draw all men unto him. It does not say a select few would be drawn but all men.

Many say election means that we are elect because God chose us to serve him but it just as well could mean we are the elect because we elect to serve him. That with our free will we make the decision to serve him. We can be called the elect because we elect to serve him.

The way I can believe that is I don't take four or five scriptures and teach a doctrine out of those few scriptures. I take all of them and balance them out.

If babies were saved in their mothers wombs then something is wrong here because no confession was made.

 

Hi Scott. Thank you again for your comments. They are much appreciated and enjoyed. It is always good to brainstorm ideas and learn. You are correct that we do VERY much agree on the original subject of your post, which is that babies are saved in the womb. We only seem to disagree on how we think it all comes about.

We are not saved by our faith in Christ. The Bible is very clear - we are Saved by Grace (Eph. 2: 5, 8). GOD does the work – not us. Our faith in Christ is the evidence that we are saved. You have it in reverse. Believing in Christ alone, without having our sins paid for will not get us into heaven. Even the devils believe and they most assuredly are not saved (James 2: 19).

GOD saved us by forgiving our sins. This was accomplished when Christ died for our sins. That occurred before the foundation of the world (Rev. 13: 8).

If Christ was NOT slain prior to 2,000 years ago (as you insist) then there could not have been forgiveness of sins prior to that date. Fortunately for the believers who lived PRIOR to 2,000 years ago, Christ was already slain, so salvation was available to them too - before the foundation of the world as the Bible plainly teaches (Rev. 13: 8).

Hebrews 11 never mentions the cross. The faith of the OT believers did NOT save them (see above) and Hebrews 11 does not say that it did. In fact, Heb. 11 says the exact opposite. The faith of the OT believers was an EVIDENCE that they were already saved (Eph. 1: 4). That is the only way they could have had their sins forgiven in order to enter heaven.

“But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5: 8). Christ died for his elect WHILE they were yet sinners. Old Testament people were sinners too! Obviously, if Christ died WHILE they were yet sinners, then he must have died PRIOR to the time frame of these Old Testament sinners. Romans 5: 8 demands this.

Rev. 13: 8 say’s “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” (Rev. 13: 8). Scott, I asked you, “At what time was Jesus slain? Was he slain from the foundation of the world, or not?”

You answer, “Predestination is different from present ideas” does not answer the question I raised. Please try again. Was Jesus slain from before the foundation of the world or not? It a yes or no answer.

I will answer your direct question with a direct answer. You asked, “what did Christ mean when He said from the cross, "IT IS FINISHED?"

The phrase “it is finished” means a number of things. Principally, it signaled an end to the “Old Testatment” worship system. This is why the veil of the temple was torn (Matt. 27: 50-51, Mark 15: 38). It meant an end of GOD's special relationship with Israel which now belonged to the church. It also meant the end of GOD’s spiritual marriage to his first bride Israel (Jer. 3: 14) paving the way for GOD’s marriage to his new bride the New Testament church (Rev. 19: 7).

Thank you again for your comments Scott. It is appreciated.

latterrain77

 

Hi Scott. Thank you again for you reply. It is very much appreciated, and I thank you for taking the time and effort to brainstorm. I appreciate your compliment that you see my view as being “unlike orthodox Christianity” and “unharmonious” with the view of most commentators.

I already answered your question about “being born again.” It’s in one of my posts on page 2 of this thread. I also answered your specific question about “it is finished” (it’s in one of my posts on page 3 of this thread). I have answered your questions, but you have not answered mine.

I have asked you 3 times now to answer an extremely simple question concerning Rev. 13: 8 and Eph 1: 4 and you’ve yet to do it.

For example, you have yet to tell me HOW a baby in the womb can make a profession of faith. They can’t! Your way dooms the child who might (GOD FORBID) not survive. The Biblical way SAVES the child (Eph. 1: 4). Here is your last chance to answer this question Scott. How does a baby in the womb make a profession of faith?

For example, you were flatly wrong about Hebrews 11 when you said, and I quote, “see Hebrews ch 11. OT saint looking towards the cross, NT saint looking back." When I asked you to show me WHERE in Heb. 11 it mentions the cross, you changed the subject.

Rev. 13: 8 say’s “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” (Rev. 13: 8).

Question: “Was Jesus slain from the foundation of the world, or not?” YES or NO? I've asked you 3 times to answer this and you have YET to do it. Please answer these questions this time.

In your latest post you ask, “If He died at the foundation, why did He have to die again?”

He didn't. It's like his BIRTH. Did Jesus EXIST before the foundation of the world? Yes! (John 1: 1-2). Why then was HE born in the womb of Mary if HE was already in existence? Did HIS being physically born to Mary negate HIS existence and experience prior to being born in the physical womb of Mary? I say NO! It is the same thing concerning HIS being slain. Your way attempts to apply human time lines towards the glory and majesty of GOD – which fails the Biblical test. That is why you have not answered the questions concerning Rev. 13: 8 and Eph. 1: 4 (not to mention Rom. 5: 8).

The position you hold is similar to that of Nicodemus (John 3: 4-5).

I look forward to your answers to my long ago asked questions.

Thank you again Scott.

latterrain77

[ September 05, 2002, 07:04 AM: Message edited by: latterrain77 ]

 

Hi Scott. Thank you for the post. You and I must be the only Christians who totally AGREE on a topic (babies being saved in the womb) yet can still figure out a way to disagree about it. Man, we ARE Baptists!

As I mentioned in one of my earlier posts, I don’t place too much emphasis in the commentaries of theologians, though I very much appreciate your sharing the ones you did with me. I have enjoyed our good brainstorming sessions, which the Bible commands us to engage in (1 Tim. 4: 13, 2 Tim. 2: 15).

I also want to thank you for sharing your testimony Scott. It is a powerful one. GOD is most merciful. You say “there is no way one could establish I was Gods.” Maybe people could not establish it or see it. However, GOD could! HE always knew you, even when you thought you didn’t know HIM. He was ALWAYS with you – he NEVER left you (Hebrews 13: 5). The words used in this verse of the book of Hebrews is "NEVER leave you." Never is a very LONG TIME - as in from the foundation of the world (sound familiar?). GOD is the one who established that you were HIS before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1: 4). GOD, during that entire time, NEVER left you.

I’m looking forward to our next “brainstorming” session in a new topic on the BaptistBoard - all in good Christian love and fellowship. Thank you again Scott.

latterrain77

[ September 05, 2002, 09:59 PM: Message edited by: latterrain77 ]