True vs. False Spiritual Knowledge

Everything you post seems to get wilder and wilder. You say document that Paul got his information by revelation and we must get it the same way or we will have false spiritual knowledge.

Revelation has ended. There is no more revelation. Not even Paul's converts got their knowledge the way Paul did. They got their knowledge from Paul and they were taught by others.

Paul himself talked of the model of teaching in 2 Tim 2:2 where he tells Timothy to pass on what he has learned to other faithful men who will be able to teach others also. The modern system of biblical education is an attempt to do that.

You keep talking of NT Christianity but you give little evidence of knowing or understanding what NT Christianity actually was.

 

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Posts: 132 | From: International | Registered: Feb 2002 | IP: Logged

Wha' hoppen', miss the train?

 

No, this is indeed true we also need revelation of Christ. The above is more true then the church realizes. Revelation as in the revealing of Christ to a person still exists. The book might be finished as well as His work but we are to walk with God and recieve revelation of Him in divine fellowship. He rewards us with Himself.

This is something not taught to you but recieved through the Spirit, you only know it when you recieve it.

In Christ
Star

 

Hmm, shades of David Koresh!

HankD

 

Hmmmm.... to compare the word of God to such is dangerous ground, don't you read the scriptures?

To be given a Spirit of wisdom and revelation is scriptural. God Spirit doesn't do hurtful things only a man without the Spirit would. But if this has not been recieved it can be considered foolishness by one "sort" only. We are given the mind of Christ thats scripture unless you haven't been?

In Him Kim

 

LP said:

Our brand of Christianity that makes us "doctors" and "theologans" and the like--it is a false Christian spirituality. Paul did not learn--learn with all his heart, soul, mind and strength--what he did through any stripe of primary intellectual inquiry and accumen. Quite, quite, quite on the contrary.

Paul was an apostle, someone who received a direct, supernatural, personal revelation from the risen Christ because he had a key role in God's evangelistic purpose for the Church, particularly among the Gentiles. He was a special case. Why should we take the experiences of Paul as normative for all Christians?

Doing a study of the New Testament, particularly Acts, you discover that direct, personal, supernatural directions giving particular leading or instruction happen to relatively few people, mostly apostles, fairly infrequently, over the course of many years. Why, therefore, should we conclude that constant supernatural revelation is normative for all Christians, all the time?

[ March 22, 2002, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: Ransom ]

 

I believe as we do study loving God with all our heart soul mind and strength we find we can not understand the words of God it requires something of God to reveal himself to the individual as was the case of Peter and Paul. Now Paul had a THOROUGH knowledge of scripture but since the natural man cannot recieve or understand the things of the Spirit there needs to be "revelation" in order to understand. Pauls water (concerning knowledge) changed to Wine here. The world by its wisdom did not know God, this applies to Paul himself who was "the best of the best" so to speak. But with His knowledge he still didn't know as He ought to have known.

Now as seen in the example of Cain (firstborn of the flesh) He was SERVING GOD as was Paul but this is seen as manifesting itself as killing the church of Christ, even Christ Himself.

The Wisdom of God is Christ and it makes foolishness the wisdom of this world, how? For the world by its wisdom can't know God that is why we NEED the mind of Christ. The letter kills and the "letter" is all the natural mind can see because these things are spiritual needing the Spirit to interpret the things of God. One cannot compare spiritual with spiritual without the spirit thats why seeing anything as spiritual is seen as foolishness. So though seeing they cannot percieve or understand. The pharisees said "We see" so they remained blind because He gives sight to the blind but they did not think they were blind. Paul being set aside at birth to recieve this revelation is Gods doing. Paul is showing He was the most knowledgable and the strongest in reference to the natural understanding in the wisdom of men but this was not enough He prayed that they themselves would recieve a spirit of wisdom and revelation to know Him better, also saying He himself would go onto more revelations in the Lord. This means of revelation is the "revealing of Christ" in you and bears witness of the work of Christ teaching you and leading you into the knowledge of the truth that makes you free. We are to be taught by God and God teaches by way of revelation for eternal life is to "know" Him.

Christ said the world will see me no longer but that they would see Him because He lived (we being living waters for the waters are people in Rev) sharing the living water )which Christ said that if any man believes on me as the scriptures saith out of his innermost being will flow rivers of living water). Elsewhere stated that understanding is the fountain of life to those who had it, "hearing what the Spirit says". the spirit was to lead us into all truth bearing witness of Christ and teaching us all things in christ. Christ himself said to His disciples that He had more to tell them then they could bear at that time that the Spirit would lead them "over" so to speak as Man who could not take them any further then Moses who could not take them past a certain point.

Even as Joh who helped prepare the way before the Lord He was to present them to Christ they were not to follow John but to follow Christ in this way John was great because His job was to prepare the people to hear Christ for themselves and pointed to Jesus "behold the lamb of God who taketh away the sins of the world" and after pointing to Him (not self) they followed after Jesus, his job was done in that regard. After we are born of the Spirit in the time set by the Father we follow after the Spirit. These are the sons of God. For the whole of creation eagerly awaits the manifestation of the Sons of God those who follow Christ wherever He goes as those born after the Spirit should do.

In Him Kim

 

>> God Spirit doesn't do hurtful things >>

What about Annanias and Saphira who lied to God?

HankD

 

HankD,
Peter said they lied to God not men and I can't find the verse that says the holy spirit killed either of them can you?

On the other hand an "Angel of the Lord" struck down Herod but its not the Holy spirit as far as I can see.

In Him Kim

 

Hi Star,

You are correct in that the specific person of the Trinity is not named.

My view is that what one does, all put their stamp of approval upon. But you are correct the Spirit is not named in either of these passages.

HankD

 

HankD,

I love your humility you bless me

What did you mean by this can you explain once again?
"My view is that what one does, all put their stamp of approval upon."

In Him Kim

 

>>What did you mean by this can you explain once again?"My view is that what one does, all put their stamp of approval upon.">>

Well, I believe that God is a Trinity, three persons in one divine essence. What one member of the Trinity does the others by their very nature will appprove.

If the Father destroys the world by a flood the Son (Logos) and the Spirit would be in agreement that it is necessary.

Here is a Scripture which illustrates this (imo):

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

HankD

 

HankD

Did you ever notice in the garden there was no "us" until after the Serpent "appeared"? I thought often on this seeing as Christ Himself said, "Just as Moses lifted up the Serpent in the wilderness so I also must be lifted up"
The Serpent is deceiving Eve and yet so does God here...

(Jerm 20:7)O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me.

2Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

1Chron 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

If you hold the scriptures as "absolute" which I do without making excuses for them OR reaching out our hand (natural understanding) to "steady" the ark (testimony) we'd have to deal with these things also.

Satan is seen as Serpent a star, meat, perfect UNTIL SIN is found in Him and mindful of the things of men (Peter)

Christ is seen as a Serpent , Morning star, meat (His flesh) and perfect but HE BECAME SIN (having ours) dying on a Cross for men

So heres the question how does the Serpent fit in here as it pertains to all the above (I have much more)

Thanks for explaining what you have I didn't understand what you said as you put it I understand you now

In Him Kim

 

Star, are you implying that Christ and Satan are the same people? The of course would be heresy. And if that is what you believe, you hold to another Jesus. Care to explain your belief on the Trinity since it appears as though you don't embrace it? Remember, use Scripture. John 1:1 says, "In the beginning was the WORD and the WORD was with God, and the WORD was God."

 

Um...so now God is also Satan?

God deceived Eve?

And Star, even though it's been explained to her more than once, is still posting in the Baptists Only section?

Pretty simple answer, Star: Take your subject here, and create a new thread down in the "All other Christians" section.

 

Dear Star,

You wrote…

>>Did you ever notice in the garden there was no "us" until after the Serpent "appeared"? >>

Actually there seems to be an occurrence of "us" in Genesis 1:26 before the Serpent appeared to Eve.

And God (Elohim) said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

The Word for God in verse 26 is "Elohim" which has a masculine plural ending.

As someone else has noted this passage seems to have a parallel verse in the NT John 1:1-3.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

I believe something else is also noteworthy (looking again at the Genesis 3 passage):

22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

In this passage the Scripture calls God "The LORD God" or the YHWH-Elohim connective Name of God

YHWH is the concatenation of the 3 tenses of the verb "to be" (I know that Hebrew has no present verbal tense but uses a noun (infinitive) or adverbial form to indicate a verbal present tense),

In other words YHWH - I was, I AM, I will be, or The Eternal One. So, those members of the Elohim Godhead are all eternal. This would exclude any created beings from inclusion in the Eternal-Elohim Godhead.

You ask for my thoughts about Satan and his place in all this, and I would say that I see him as a distinct and separate being, one of God's creation which fell in sin.

Why does God use the brazen serpent as a symbol related to Christ?

Well, I don't for sure, but just perhaps because Our Father wanted us to see the price that was paid to redeem Adam's race of sinners.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

HankD

[ March 23, 2002, 08:57 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

Preach I'm looking at Gods word wondering why (in simple curiosity) why Jesus the Lamb of God is typed as a Serpent on a pole (rather then the lamb) I think after much reading and the words I shared that show some consistencies in the similitudes to both would not be being evil but truthful. They are Gods words I'm just reading them open mindedly wondering why God has choosen to show them as such.

Trinity is not in scripture because the Lord our God is ONE GOD. God wrote words (inspired prophets through visions and similitudes) in the Old testament and The Prophets these are two witnesses of His. God establishes every matter by a testimony of two OR three witnesses. Christ was the manifestation (Sold form) of the Old testament and what they spoke of was Christ (as Jesus said). Christ is the Word made flesh. I see it as ALL GODS WORDS (Everything spoken) Is Christ Jesus Himself. The Cross of Christ the birth of new covenant we have the Spirit of God poured on us to teach us of Christ and how to love each other. Through abiding in Christ (The Truth) we bear the fruit of the divine nature becoming sons of God.

Was that simple enough?

There is nothing shameful about studying Gods word and finding similarities and asking God about them He is clearly able to teach. I think I raised some good points. Being a Christian is about honesty as well. If Christ is as a "Rock of offence" choosing those beggarly things I look and am blessed. No shame in learning His words they are similitudes. Besides Christians seem so confused about many things and maybe a look in that direction thoroughly looked at can prove worth while, like "How to refute it"? See?

Theres learning in everything

In Him Kim

 

HankD,

The verse you found has did it for me!!! Thank you so much, I'm too excited here lol! Do you see this? Your right the words "Let us" starts out at the making of man and woman but every place else befoe this God does not. God starts saying, "Let us" immediately after "the beasts of the earth are made" (The Serpent is a beast of the feild) Thats even stranger, because I hadn't found this one before speaking with you.


You said...
Actually there seems to be an occurrence of "us" in Genesis 1:26 before the Serpent appeared to Eve.
The first occurrence of the word "us" lands us right smack dab AFTER the BEASTS were made (do you see this?) Right then He starts saying "let us" before this time its God saying, God said and God made, God said, and God made, see what I'm talking about? This is neat!

But look here, tell me if you don't see this?
(BEFORE HE MADE MAN AND WOMAN)
Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and BEAST of the earth after his kind: and it was so. (The Serpent is a BEAST OF THE EARTH- Gen 3:1)

"Every word" is so perfect...

So the Serpent is made BEFORE man and woman were in the "first account" (seven days)

Listen to how God starts off

And God said, and God made, and God said, and God made etc.

((UNTIL)) AFTER HE MADE THE BEASTS OF THE EARTH (the Serpent) Not only that but God saw that it was good (not evil)

NEXT VERSE (After the making the beasts of the earth)

NOW GOD STARTS SPEAKING AS (((US))))

Genesis 1:26 And God said, (((LET US))) make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

The Serpent was made first (included in the beasts of the earth) God changes His language right after making them.

After the Woman ate from the Tree where the Serpent was once again, then you hear God say it again, "they have become like one of us"

I'm looking at this closely trying to see what I'm suppose to, as other pictures have pulled together I'm just seeing this neat little item that passed me by as often as I read it lol!

Hopefully more will come I'm still working this one out here.

In Him Kim

[ March 24, 2002, 01:53 AM: Message edited by: Star ]

 

Kim, Please consider a few things.

1. You are not the first, not the wisest, and not the most knowledgeable in Scripture to have looked into a number of these points. It might behoove you to read what some others have said along these lines.

2. The bronze snake is NOT a) a serpent in the Hebrew and b) a type of Christ. It is the lifting up which is the type, not that which was lifted up. Please read John 3:14-15 carefully.

3. If you want to read God's Word just as they were written, please learn Hebrew. All translators MUST choose, occasionally, between literal word and actual meaning due to idiomatic uses in any culture and language. Best you should get to know these as well. In other words, your reading of Scripture in English and refusing to look at the wisdom God has given others puts you two steps behind from the get-go.

4. The Trinity is most DEFINITELY in Scripture, although not by that name. At the bottom of this post is a letter I wrote to a young lady some years ago regarding what the Jehovah's Witnesses were teaching her.

5. There's learning in everything? And that's good? That's what Satan told Eve, essentially....

Here's the letter:

===============

The concept of the Trinity is present from the opening verse of the Bible,
actually. The word "God" in Genesis 1:1 is "elohim." This is not a simple
plural of the word 'god.' The plural of that word, which means 'two,' is
"eloh." "Elohim" means "three or more."

In Deuteronomy 6:4, we have the resounding, "Hear O Israel, the LORD our
God, the LORD is one!"

"God" is, there again, "Elohim." What is also interesting is that the last
word of that, the word "one" is the word "echad." "Echad" means unity in
plurality. It is the same word used regarding marriage in Genesis. 2:24,
when a man is to leave his mother and father and become one with his wife.
The word which is NOT used there to mean "one" is "yachid." "Yachid" means a unique singularity.

Now go to Isaiah 9 -- the famous Christmas verse:

"For unto us a child is born
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor,
Mighty God,
Everlasting Father,
Prince of Peace."

Now go to Isaiah 44:6 --

"This is what the LORD says -- Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD
Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
Apart from me there is no God."

Please cross reference this with Jesus' words to John in Revelation
1:17-18 -- "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living
One. I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever."

Check the Gospel of John, opening sentences, opening chapter:

"In the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God and the Word was
God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made;
without him nothing was made that has been made. [Remember Genesis 1:1 --
"In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.:] .... The Word
became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the
glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and
truth."

Please note also that the absolutely correct translation of the Hebrew is
"...and God was the Word," - I urge you to look it up.

And remember Jesus words' at the end of Matthew: "...baptizing them in the
name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit...." and, again,
Jesus' words defining eternal life in John 17:3 clearly equate Him with the
Father.

And so, although we may not understand the Trinity with our human minds very
well, the doctrine of the Trinity is present in the Bible from the first.
Jesus is God Himself in the flesh, and it was because this was His very
claim that the Pharisees were so outraged and attempted several times to
stone Him. There are two Greek words which mean "I am." The first is "ego"
which means "I am " with the emphasis on the "I". The second is "eimi",
which also means "I am" with the emphasis on the "am." John records three
times when Jesus used the double phrase "Ego eimi", meaning "I am I AM" or "I am [the] I AM:" when He identified Himself to the woman at the well
in John 4:26, in John 8:24, when responding to the Pharisaical challenge,
and when He identified Himself to the Pharisees in John 8:58 (at which time
the Pharisees picked up rocks to stone Him for the blasphemy of using God's
name -- they thought in vain). In John 10:31-33, we see the incident where
the Pharisees again want to stone him and Jesus asks them why:

"I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these
do you stone me?"
"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for
blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

The Pharisees understood quite clearly: Jesus claimed to be God.

In John 14-17 we have the famous last discourse of our Lord. In John 14:16,
Jesus promises "another" counselor to be with the disciples forever. He
identifies this Counselor as the Holy Spirit. The interesting thing here is
the word He chose for "another." Again, there are two Greek words for Him
to choose from. One is "allos", meaning "exactly alike in every detail."
The other is "heteros" meaning "a different other". The first -- allos --
would be used if you broke a vase at someone's house and you promised to buy
the owner another vase exactly like the first as a replacement. The
second -- heteros -- would be used if you had a wonderful vacation with your
family and you promised yourselves another vacation together next year.
When Jesus referred to "another" Counselor, the word He used was "allos."
He was one Counselor, but He would send "another" -- allos -- one just like
Him, for the disciples. This is re-affirmed when Jesus refers to the Holy
Spirit as "the Spirit of Truth" in John 16:13. Jesus had identified Himself
as "the truth" in John 14:6. The Spirit is also identified as being present
in Genesis 1:2 -- right there in the beginning.

We may have invented the word "Trinity" somewhere along the line to try to
put a name to this concept, but the reality of the Father, Son, and Holy
Spirit all being the One God (which is exactly what the Shema says), is
present from the beginning to the end of the Bible.