My Views, Your Vote

Michael, that is quite a list. I find it quite interesting, because many of these things appear contradictory to my way of thinking (such associate church membership for infants/children, yet insisting on believers' baptism). But I have heard of all of these in churches that are called Baptist, with the exception of numbers 14, 15, and 19. These three are more toward the Catholic extreme. Are you a Baptist? In my opinion a number of these are not Biblical, and, of course, I think Baptists ought to be Biblical. So, in the strictest sense, I would say no. But you are as much a Baptist as many others who carry the name; and I would not be surprised if even numbers 14, 15, & 19 are used in some Baptist churches today. The chief problem you will have is finding all these 24 things combined in one church. I know of no denomination that has this particular combination of beliefs, though perhaps there is one.

[ November 06, 2001: Message edited by: rlvaughn ]

 

Michael

I have to agree with Robert on this one, (Course Robert and I are pretty close theologically).

I think you are going to have to prioritize which values/attributes you think are most important to you. I would assume the candless thing is fairly low on your list, but I, of course, don't know that.

It may be that you could find a church like that somewhere, but where it would be I don't know. (I would be doubtful of it though).

In the real world, unless you want to start your own church, you are going to have to prioritize your list, then make a list of the churches close enough to get to on a regular basis, and visit each, and check off which does what. You might want to assign a points value to those ideas in your list, and thus you might come up with one as close as you can get.

Jeff.

 

Okay, Michael, I have read your views and am ready to vote on what denomination you should belong to.

And my response? Michael, you are not Baptist. You are not Methodist. You are not Episcopalian. You are not Lutheran. You are not Catholic. You are not Pentecostal. You are not Presbyterian.

You are confused!

 

If your views don't fit into any denominations beliefs, don't you think there is something wrong?

 

OH BROTHER!... Brother Glen

 

Michael,

The more I read from you, the more I think you would be happier (perhaps) in a United Methodist Church...or else a very liberal CBF church. The only thing that would not work for you in the Methodist denominations is that they are not very high on freedom of the Believers. However, I doubt that you would find much to disagree with in their doctrines as they do tend to be more liberal anyway (IMHO).

Hope this Helps,

Joseph Botwinick

 

Can I ask a question? What do you mean when you say you believe in church candles?

 

What is apparent in this thread - and the several others Michael has posted - is that in his mind, it is all about Michael, when the truth is, it is all about Christ. The Bible has told us what we need to believe about the essentials of the faith; they are not deniable. Not while remaining orthodox and a true believer.

This is my only word on this subject. Until you, Michael, are crucified with Christ; and no longer live, but it is Christ who lives within you; and then the life which you then live in the flesh you live by faith in the Son of God (Gal 2:20) you will always find yourself at odds with the orthodox denominations. Stop relying on self and vain prefences and rely on Christ alone.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.

[ November 06, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

 

In my church and I can speak for no other but mine... The beauty of God house is the Son and his doctrine and people... Outward beauty is only for carnal eyes... Inward beauty is for spiritual eyes that carnal eyes can't see... Brother Glen

[ November 06, 2001: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

My views, in no particular order:

(1) Associate church membership for infants/young children - plenty of baptist churches with this option

(2) Infant dedication - baptists invented this

(3) Believer's baptism only (no infant
baptism) - baptist distinctive

(4) No "once saved, always saved" - tends to be an issue of debate among baptists. It's unlikely you'll find a church where all of the believers believe one way or another.

(5) Baptism by immersion, with exceptions
(illness, disability) - Baptist churches vary here, but it's certainly consistent with the baptist heritage

(6) Symbolism of ordinances - a traditional baptist perspective

(7) Soul liberty - Baptists were hung in some of the be st places in Europe defending this concept. Shurden would be proud of you.

(8) Church-state separation - Baptists pretty much invented this too.

(9) Religious liberty - If we don't have it, we don't have baptists.

(10) Priesthood of the believer - Surden would again be proud. Another of the 4 (baptist) fragile freedoms.

(11) Freedom of Bible interpretation - Yet another traditional baptist freedom (Shurden again).

(12) Absolute local church autonomy
--voluntary giving
--church may call pastor
--church may ordain whomever it wishes
--church owns its property
--efforts by the SBC to the contrary, this is still the way almost all baptist churches work.

(13) Absolute equality of members, including
gender equality--any member, male or
female , may serve the church in any
capacity - Here you get into the fundamentalist issue. In fundamentalist baptist churches, you'd be right out. In conservative, moderate, and liberal ones - no problem.

(14) Prayers for the dead - Huh? In a Mormon or get-outta-Purgatory kinda way? I can't think of a baptist church where this would happen.

(15) Candles in worship service - Not uncommon in liturgical (i.e. Charleston tradition) baptist congregations.

(16) Periods of silence in worship service - Again not uncommon in liturgical baptist congregations. We usually do ours during the call to confession.

(17) Some written prayers acceptable - David Buttrick, retired baptist homiletics professor at Vandy, says (I'm paraphrasing), "Steal your sermon if you have to, but be sure to write out and plan your pastoral prayer." Perfectly baptist, but more common in liturgical churches.

(18) Open communion--any believer may
partake; water baptism not a
prerequisite - certainly biblical, and there are plenty of baptist churches that take this approach

(19) Occasional readings from the Apocrypha
acceptable - You'd almost have to be in a church with a (non-SBC-post ~1993) seminary-educated pastor, but you should be able to find this. Of course, for regular scripture readings in worship, you'd probably need a liturgical congregation.

(20) No clergy titles such as "Reverend" - Plenty of baptists will agree with you here, Brother Michael.

(21) Bible, the final external authority, but use God-given reason and experience in interpretation of scripture - Well, you've ruled out any baptist church that adopted the new SBC creed, but you'd still be fine in a conservative, moderate, or liberal church.

(22) The Light of Christ in every human being - Well, the calvinist churches are out for you, but they seem to be experiencing a resurgence only among the fundamentalists. This might shift you away from the conservative churches, but still plenty of baptist ones out there for you.

(23) Jesus Christ, the criterion by which scripture is interpreted under the guidance of the Holy Spirit - see # 22

(24) Lay-administered ordinances - doesn't get much more baptist than that

Based on all of the above, I'd say you belong in a conservative or moderate liturgical baptist congregation. With the exception of 14, I'm not sure where you'd find all of the above except for maybe in a UCC or Disciples congregation.

Joshua

[ November 06, 2001: Message edited by: Rev. Joshua Villines ]

 

Michael,

I think 1,14,&19 are a little squirrely but you sound like a Baptist to me. Your welcome at my Baptist Church.

Russell