The "Non-elect"

Doesn't bother me. It causes me to bow in amazement before a God who would choose to save anybody.

Piper says, "Man-centered humans are amazed that God should withhold life and ajoy from his creatures. But the God-centered Bible is amazed that God would withhold judgmetn from sinners" (The Supremacy of God in Preaching -- This book should be required reading for anyone who stands in a pulpit or who wants to stand in a pulpit).

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Piper says, "Man-centered humans are amazed that God should withhold life and ajoy from his creatures. But the God-centered Bible is amazed that God would withhold judgmetn from sinners" (The Supremacy of God in Preaching -- This book should be required reading for anyone who stands in a pulpit or who wants to stand in a pulpit).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or anyone who listens to sermons from the pulpit. The height and depth and breadth of most preaching from most pulpits is embarrassingly shallow.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Wrenn:
For those of you who believe in the Calvinist doctrine that the non-elect are predestined to hell and that there's nothing they can do about it: Doesn't this doctrine trouble you? Doesn't the idea that a human being does not have the freedom to choose for or against Christ cause you distress?

The idea that there are those for whom there is no hope is a greatly troubling idea to me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There would be no hope for anyone - even the elect - were God not able to will and do what he perfectly decides to do. A God who's will is thwarted by sinful creatures is a much more troubling idea than depraved sinners with an enslaved-to-sin will.

Isa 55:11 So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Wrenn:
I guess, then, when I look at Jesus, I see a different image of God than you do. That is not meant to be disrespectful but merely a recognition that you and I see diametrically opposite things in the Bibe.

It seems to me that Calvinists always resort to charging non-Calvinists with a man-centered theology when the truth is that non-Calvinists see God as not only a God of judgment but also a God of mercy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Michael:

Your experiences must be (unfortunately) with the worst kind of hyper-calvinism, instead of biblical Calvinism. Read Edwards, and Spurgeon, Octavius Winslow, Whitefield. Piper and many more: their sermons permeate with the grace and mercy of the Sovereign God. Again, if God were not totally sovereign, there would be no grace or mercy. The doctrine of election IS the doctrine of mercy.

"Amazing love, how can it be?
That thou my God shouldst die for me?"

**************************
"The MERCY of God." - Psalm 52:8
(The following is by Spurgeon.)

Meditate a little on this MERCY of the Lord.

It is tender mercy!
With gentle, loving touch, he heals the broken in heart, and binds up their wounds. He is as gracious in the manner of his mercy as in the matter of it.

It is great mercy!
There is nothing little in God.
His mercy is like himself- it is infinite!
You cannot measure it. His mercy is so great
that it forgives great sins of great sinners, after great lengths of time, and then gives great favors and great privileges, and raises us up to great enjoyments in the great heaven
of the great God!

It is undeserved mercy!
Indeed all true mercy must be undeserved, for deserved mercy is only a misnomer for justice. There was no right on the sinner's part to the kind mercy of the Most High. Had the rebel been doomed at once to eternal fire he would have richly merited the doom.
If delivered from wrath, sovereign love
alone has found a cause, for there was
none in the sinner himself.

It is rich mercy!
Some things are great, but have little
efficacy in them. But the mercy of God is--
A cordial to your drooping spirits!
A golden ointment to your bleeding wounds!
A heavenly bandage to your broken bones!
A royal chariot for your weary feet!
A bosom of love for your trembling heart!

It is manifold mercy!
As Bunyan says, "All the flowers in God's
garden are double." There is no single mercy. You may think you have but one mercy, but you shall find it to be a whole cluster of mercies!

It is abounding mercy!
Millions have received it, yet far from its
being exhausted! It is as fresh, as full,
and as free as ever!

It is unfailing mercy!
It will never leave you. Mercy will be with you in temptation to keep you from yielding. Mercy will be with in trouble to prevent you from sinking. Mercy will be with you while living to be the light and life of your countenance. Mercy will be with you when dying to be the joy of your soul
when earthly comfort is ebbing fast.

[ November 19, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

 

Michael, yes, it bothers me greatly that souls are hell bound. That fact reminds me that I am an undeserving recipient of God's mercy and grace. The terrible nature of sin, and the distruction it brings, causes me much agony. When I see Christians, preachers, and churches departing from the true gospel and preaching a false gospel of human merit, it grieves me even more. It creates an environment where the lost begin to think they deserve God's mercy and grace based on their choices, the innate goodness of their heart, their actions, etc. To me, that lifts up man at the expence of the grace of God. To suggest there is anything in a lost man that is good enough to make a godly choice is to so misunderstand the heinous nature of sin, and how depraved we really are.

 

Michael you asked,


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> On what basis do you think God elects "the elect" Because he has foreknowledge of what's in their hearts? Or does he just indiscriminately choose some and pass over the others?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will quote a few reformed confessions that reflect my view,

1689 London Baptist Confession Chapter III
Those of mankind that are predestined to life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of His mere free grace and love,[11]without any other thing in the creature as a condition or cause moving Him thereunto


The Thirty-nine Articles of Religion of the Church of England, Article XVII Of Predestination and Election
Predestination to Life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby (before the foundations of the world were laid) he hath constantly decreed by his counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honour.

The Waldensian Confession 1655, Articles XI
That God saves from this corruption and condemnation those whom he has chosen {from the foundation of the world, not for any foreseen disposition, faith, or holiness in them, but} of his mercy in Jesus Christ his Son; passing by all the rest, according to the irreprehensible reason of his freedom and justice.

French Huguenot Confession
God, according to his eternal and immutable counsel, calls those whom he has chosen by his goodness and mercy alone in our Lord Jesus Christ, without consideration of their works, to display in them the riches of his mercy;

You also ask, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>How many here believe in double predestination, a doctrine which Calvin taught? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If God as the Waldensian confession says, "That God saves from this corruption and condemnation those whom he has chosen {from the foundation of the world, not for any foreseen disposition, faith, or holiness in them, but} of his mercy in Jesus Christ his Son; passing by all the rest, according to the irreprehensible reason of his freedom and justice." there must be a Double Predestination.

By passing over the rest and leaving them to their just condemnation that gurantees their condemnation. Thus Double Predestination.

Hyper Calvinists take an extremist view of Double Predestination that teaches God hates the non elect and rejects evangelism. A good book that deals with Double Predestination is CHOSEN BY GOD by R.C. Sproul and also a sermon by John Bunyan entitled REBROBATION. Double Predestination is true though I think a misuse or overemphasis leads to lazy Christianity.

[ November 19, 2001: Message edited by: Kiffin ]

 

I never really did consider myself a calvanist, I have always believed in free will. Though on a post not to long ago Chris and some others said some things that made me think about why I believe what I do, and I have been fighting with this ever since. I do know that man can not come to God unless He draws them. And I know that I was predestined before the foundation of the world, I believe through the foreknowledge of God, but am no longer to sure about that. The verse that I keep coming back to though is John 12:32 " 32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."
Is not Christ saying that when He is lifted up, being the cross, He will draw all men unto Him, though most will not accept? Or am I reading this wrong?

Still confused???

God speed.

[ November 19, 2001: Message edited by: Joey M ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Wrenn:
...Doesn't this doctrine trouble you? Doesn't the idea that a human being does not have the freedom to choose for or against Christ cause you distress?...The idea that there are those for whom there is no hope is a greatly troubling idea to me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Michael, I don't want weigh in so much on the predestination/freewill issue of this discussion, but: We should all be careful of be over-influenced in our doctrines by that which troubles us. I have many friends who do not name the name of Christ (and some who do who show no evidence of it). I care for them and personally would not want see any of them roast eternally in hell. But, if what I believe about salvation is true, some of them probably will. Yet I cannot begin to even think that in any way I care more for them than God does. If we become too troubled by the doctrine of hell, it will run us all the way to universalism - that all will ultimately go to heaven. In another forum, Bro. Jeff Weaver has given us some history of just such a case among the Primitive Baptist Universalists in the Appalachian region. An elder unable to bear the thought of his son tormented in hell was driven to universalism to find relief. The idea that all will go to heaven would be more comforting to me from the human emotions standpoint. But I do not believe it is Biblical. Just my thoughts on emotionally driven doctrinal positions.

 

I think that Calvinists of all breeds would just say:
"Don't worry about that. God has it all under control. Just be glad that you are one of the elect; but you didn't have any choice in that, either. We can't understand God, and if He chooses to create people just to cast them into hell, that is His choice."

A Calvinist cannot see more than one view of God, which is the view that the Calvinist has created.

God is not the way that the Calvinist views God. Calvinism is just one of the ways of explaining how God operates. I'm glad that the Living God is not the way that the Calvinist paints Him.

The Calvinist has the ability, like many other "ists", of having to interpret many scriptures to fit their model. But, if they have received Jesus as their Savior, then they will be in heaven.

Then they will understand. But nothing before heaven will convince a Calvinist they are not correct.

JN 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. [18] Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. [19] This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. [20] Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. [21] But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Wrenn:
Chris,

"A God whose will is thwarted by sinful creatures"--I think right there is a statement that needs to be explored further. What exactly do you mean by that? I don't believe that, and I don't think other non-Calvinists do, either.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's encouraging, Michael

The argument most used against Calvinism is an appeal to the texts which apparently teach God's universal desire for all to be saved. The classic Arminian case says God desires all men to be saved, yet all are nto saved. God has done all he can, now it is up to man to decide to be saved or not; to accept the gift of forgiveness or not. Therefore God's will (I desire for all to be saved) is thwarted by the creature (I will not accept your offer).

This might be lengthy, but the following lesson I taught on the atonement from Gal 1:4 might be helpful:
*****************************
When we do an exegetical study, we must not pass over the hard teachings of Scripture, but address them all. One of the oldest and toughest questions is the question for whom did Christ die?

Most (90%?) of the Evangelical world today says that Christ died for everyone who ever lived or will ever live. This includes most Baptists, Methodists, and nondenominational Evangelicals.

The minority (10%) of Evangelicals believe that Christ died as an atonement for only the elect. This includes Presbyterians, The Reformed denominations and Reformed Baptists.

Neither belief is more orthodox than the other. Both are historic Evangelical interpretations.

General or Universal Atonement. THIS IS THE BELIEF THAT CHRIST DIED FOR ALL PEOPLE EVERYWHERE AND IN EVERY AGE.
the main component of this belief is that Christ died for all persons and his atoning death only becomes effectual when a person believes in Christ.

it only makes salvation possible for all, but not assured. The belief is based on an appeal to apparently universal Scriptures referring to Christ’s death:

John 1:29 “…Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!”
II Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.
I Tim 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
I John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Limited or Particular Atonement – THIS IS THE BELIEF THAT CHRIST DIED ONLY FOR THE ELECT OF GOD. The main component of this belief is that Christ’s death atoned for the sins of only the elect. He did not make salvation possible, but actual. The specific texts define the general texts.

It is better named Particular Redemption – and is both historically Christian (Reformed) and even Baptist (Particular Baptist). It is the position of Calvin and the Puritans, as well as historic Baptist Fathers as well as the Founders of the SBC.
It is also the position of solid present day scholars like R.C. Sproul, J.I. Packer, EE’s D. James Kennedy, John Piper, Albert Mohler – and myself.

The problem with the GENERAL ATONEMENT view is that it logically leads to hypothetical universalism, because everyone then:
1. has had their sins atoned for
2. everyone has been redeemed
3. everyone has been propitiated before God
4. For anyone to then go to hell who has had their sins atoned for would be double jeopardy.
5. It makes faith a necessary component of the atonement, and thereby is salvation by works.
6. If faith is a necessary component of attaining the atonement, then it is theoretically possible that some may never have believed. In that case Christ would have died in vain.

Scripture says that Christ died as a substitutionary sacrifice for the sins of the elect only.

Eph 5:25 Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
John 10:11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
John 10:15 as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.
1 John 3:16 We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
1 John 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Eph 5:2 and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.

Christ did not die to make salvation possible, he died to actually save the lost elect.
Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost. (KJV)
Gal 1:4 who gave himself for our sins to deliver us from the present evil age

1. What problem arises when we believe that Christ died for all people, even unbelievers? It either leads to hypothetical universalism, where everyone is either redeemed and saved, or you have redeemed, atoned for sinners who have had their sins washed away, still going to hell.

2. What problem arises when we believe that Christ died for only the elect? The texts which imply universal atonement must be carefully handled and explained.

1 Tim 2:1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2:2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I Tim 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

1 John 2:2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

If "the whole world" referred to every individual in the world, we would be forced to say that John is teaching that all people will be saved, which he does not believe (Revelation 14:9-11). The reason we would be forced to say this is that the term propitiation refers to a real removal of wrath from sinners. When God's wrath against a sinner is propitiated, it is removed from that sinner. And the result is that all God's power now flows in the service of his mercy, with the result that nothing can stop him from saving that sinner.

We do not limit the power and effectiveness of the atonement. We simply say that in the cross God had in view the actual redemption of his children. And we affirm that when Christ died for these, he did not just create the opportunity for them to save themselves, but really purchased for them all that was necessary to get them saved, including the grace of regeneration and the gift of faith.

It is clear that all men are the intended beneficiaries of the cross in some sense.
I Timothy 4:10 says that Christ is "the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." What we deny is that all men are intended as the beneficiaries of the death of Christ in the same way. All of God's mercy toward unbelievers -- from the rising sun (Matthew 5:45) to the worldwide preaching of the gospel (John 3:16) -- is made possible because of the cross.

This is the implication of Romans 3:25 where the cross is presented as the basis of God's righteousness in passing over sins. Every breath that an unbeliever takes is an act of God's mercy withholding judgment (Romans 2:4). Every time the gospel is preached to unbelievers it is the mercy of God that gives this opportunity for salvation.

Whence does this mercy flow to sinners? How is God just to withhold judgment from sinners who deserve to be immediately cast into hell? The answer is that Christ's death so clearly demonstrates God's just abhorrence of sin that he is free to treat the world with mercy without compromising his righteousness. In this sense Christ is the savior of all men.

But he is especially the Savior of those who believe. He did not die for all men in the same sense. The intention of the death of Christ for the children of God was that it purchase far more than the rising sun and the opportunity to be saved. The death of Christ actually saves from ALL evil those for whom Christ died "especially”.

One of the clearest passages on the intention of the death of Christ is Ephesians 5:25-27. Here Paul not only says that the intended beneficiary of the death of Christ is the Church, but also that the intended effect of the death of Christ is the sanctification and glorification of the church. This is the truth we want very much to preserve: that the cross was not intended to give all men the opportunity to save themselves, but was intended to actually save the church.

Paul says, … Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.

We can conclude this section with the following summary argument (Owen). Which of these statements is true?

1. Christ died for some of the sins of all men.
2. Christ died for all the sins of some men.
3. Christ died for all the sins of all men.

No one says that the first is true, for then all would be lost because of the sins that Christ did not die for. The only way to be saved from sin is for Christ to cover it with his blood.
The third statement is what many would say. Christ died for all the sins of all men. But then why are not all saved? They answer, Because some do not believe. But is this unbelief not one of the sins for which Christ died?
If they say yes, then why is it not covered by the blood of Jesus and all unbelievers saved? If they say no (unbelief is not a sin that Christ has died for) then they must say that men can be saved without having all their sins atoned for by Jesus, or they must join us in affirming statement number two: Christ died for all the sins of some men. That is, he died for the unbelief of the elect so that God's punitive wrath is appeased toward them and his grace is free to draw them irresistibly out of darkness into his marvelous light.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Wrenn:
What is troubling to me is the doctrine that those who go to hell had no choice in the matter.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, but that's not the case Michael. Unregenerate sinners knowingly, willfully choose to reject God and choose hell.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,
30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;
32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

 

gwerty said,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> A Calvinist cannot see more than one view of God, which is the view that the Calvinist has created. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One view of God? What does that mean?

The Choice idea that keeps coming up is a valid question. The fact is we Calvinists do not believe humans have a Free Will but rather a Self Will. It's not about Choice. That premise actually shows man in a neutral position which according to John 3:16-36 is wrong. Man is actually happy in his unregenerate state and has no desire for God but his or her own interest is his or her desire. Humans don't desire a relationship with the God of the Bible. It is amazing God chose to save any of us.

C.H. Spurgeon was once asked "How do you reconcile Unconditional Election and man's responsibilty to believe in Christ?" Spurgeon's response was "Why do I need to reconcile friends?"

The fact is Calvinists see no conflict between such scriptures as John 3:16, Revelation 22:17 and Unconditional Election but embrace "Whosoever will" and "Unconditional Election" .

 

qwerty:

Your post is so full of ad hominem, it is almost not worth responding. Nevertheless:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by qwerty:
I think that Calvinists of all breeds would just say:
"Don't worry about that. God has it all under control. Just be glad that you are one of the elect; but you didn't have any choice in that, either. We can't understand God, and if He chooses to create people just to cast them into hell, that is His choice."

A Calvinist cannot see more than one view of God, which is the view that the Calvinist has created. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, the view of God that Calvinists see is the view of Luther, Calvin, Augustine, Paul and Christ.

Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, and besides Me there is no savior.
12 I have declared and have saved, and I have shown, when there was no strange god among you; therefore ye are My witnesses," saith the LORD, "that I am God.
13 Yea, before the day was, I am He, and there is none that can deliver out of My hand; I will work, and who shall turn it back?"

You flee to John 3:16, as is classicly done by Arminians, as if it is an Arminian proof text, and as if Calvinists did not believe in the verse! But context is the key to interpretation. Who are the "whosoever" who will believe? Only the elect:

John 37 All that the Father giveth Me shall come to Me, and him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from Heaven, not to do Mine own will, but the will of Him that sent Me.
39 And this is the Father’s will who hath sent Me, that of all which He hath given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the Last Day.
40 And this is the will of Him that sent Me: that every one who seeth the Son and believeth in Him may have everlasting life, and I will raise him up at the Last Day."
41 The Jews then murmured at Him, because He said, "I am the Bread which came down from Heaven."
42 And they said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it then that he saith, ‘I came down from Heaven’?"
43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, "Murmur not among yourselves.
44 No man can come to Me unless the Father who hath sent Me draw him; and I will raise him up at the Last Day.
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Every man therefore that hath heard and hath learned from the Father cometh unto Me.
46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save He that is of God; He hath seen the Father.
47 Verily, verily I say unto you, He that believeth in Me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that Bread of Life.

BTW, for excellent sources refuting John 3:16 as a "proof-text" for Arminianism, see The World , John Owen's Exposition of John 3:16 , and one of the finest expositions of Calvinism ever written, J.I. Packer's Introductory Essay to John Owen's The Death of Death in the Death of Christ

 

Hi Brother Chris!

You said <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Your experiences must be (unfortunately) with the worst kind of hyper-calvinism, instead of biblical Calvinism.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could you please provide some information that parallels these differences. I would
greatly appreciate it

God Bless