Salvation

SPAM · May 1, 2001

TREVOR, in response let me say, I take no offense, but the original question is about salvation, as echoed by Gina.

Bart is entitled to nothing. Other than the grace of God we all are doomed. But, before "truth" can truly be seen, he must, by faith accept it. Just as everyone is, without that acceptance, real truth is skewed.

As I have encouraged Bart to do, he needs to reread the posts, but most importantly get in the word if he truly seeks salvation. If the rest of these posts are not drawing him to the truth, and if you will read them there is enough info on salvation listed, then he needs to get off this forum and seek God without interference from what we all are saying.

Bart is no different than anyone else, we all have got to go by the way of Calvary: my prayer is that he's not trying to go a different route.

bart · May 1, 2001

PSALM 145 3

i want to say this:

I BELIEVE THAT SALVATION IS BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH

I BELIEVE THAT "IT IS NOT OF YOURSELVES, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD"

I BELIEVE THAT IT IS "NOT OF WORKS, LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST"

I BELIEVE "A MAN HAS TO BELIEVE IN ORDER TO BE SAVED"

all these things i believe, so it will not do you any good to quote any more scriptures along these lines. i am in agreement with you on these scriptures.

you know i want to present an example;

THE CRUCIFIXION:

we have 4 accounts of the crucifixion. matthew mark luke and john, now each tells the ghastly account of the death of Jesus Christ. Now matthew might tell a few more things about the crucifixion than mark did, or vice/versa. mark might not tell as much as luke or john and vice/versa.........my point being this: TO BE ABLE TO SAY THAT WE HAVE "THE WHOLE PICTURE" ON THE SUBJECT OF THE CRUCIFIXION, WE WOULD HAVE TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT EVERY ACCOUNT (GIVEN BY GOD) ABOUT THE CRUCIFIXION..............LET ME SAY THIS AGAIN........TO SAY THAT WE HAVE THE WHOLE PICTURE ON THE SUBJECT OF THE CRUCIFIXION, WE WOULD HAVE TO TAKE INTO ACCOUNT EVERY ACCOUNT (GIVEN BY GOD) OF THE CRUCIFIXION...............to put this another way. if you read the 4 gospels, then you have the "whole picture" of the crucifixion.

a real life subject: MURDER

now lets say a man is murdered and there were 3 eyewitnesses to this murder. lets say that you talk to the 1st eyewitness and he/she told you some things about the crime that happened. but you did not talk to eyewitness #2 or #3. you see, you would not have the "whole story" or "whole picture" until you have talked to every possible person who witnessed the murder.

on the same hand; you would not have the whole picture unless you read every account given on the crucifixion. CORRECT???

BIBLICAL APPLICATION:

i want to ask something based on the above examples:LETS TAKE THE SUBJECT OF ADULTERY,

NOW GOD TALKS ABOUT THIS A FEW TIMES THROUGHOUT THE BIBLE, NOW IF I WERE STUDYING THE SUBJECT OF ADULTERY, AND I WANTED TO BE REAL SURE HOW GOD LOOKS AT THE SIN OF ADULTERY, I WOULD WANT TO READ "EVERYTHING" GOD HAD TO SAY ABOUT THE SUBJECT OF ADULTERY AND NOT UNTIL I HAD READ EVERYTHING ABOUT THIS SUBJECT WOULD I CLAIM TO HAVE THE WHOLE PICTURE.

NOW LETS TAKE THE SUBJECT OF "FAITH"...................DO WE HAVE THE WHOLE PICTURE UNTIL WE READ EVERYTHING GOD HAS TO SAY ABOUT FAITH, OR CAN WE JUST TAKE ONE SCRIPTURE AND BE DONE WITH IT?????????

NOW ON THIS BUSINESS OF NOT BEING ABLE TO UNDERSTAND SCRIPTURES UNTIL I HAVE BEEN SAVED....................IS IT POSSIBLE FOR ME TO READ AND UNDERSTAND WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES ON SALVATION, BUT NEVER OBEY THE GOSPEL??????????????????IN OTHER WORDS, CAN I PICK UP MY BIBLE, AND READ WHAT GOD WANTS ME TO DO, AND UNDERSTAND WHAT TO DO, BUT NEVER GET SAVED??????????????????????????NOW, I DID NOT ASK HOW OFTEN THIS HAPPENS, I JUST ASKED IF IT IS POSSIBLE???????

BART

bart · May 1, 2001

ALRIGHT SPAM,

WHAT MUST I DO TO BE SAVED?????

PLEASE BE REAL CLEAR WHEN YOU ANSWER.

BART

Psalm145 3 · May 2, 2001

Isaiah 55:6,7 Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Psalms 7:12 If he turn not, he will whet his sword; he hath bent his bow, and made it ready.

Deuteronomy 32:35 To me belongeth vengeance and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste.

Bart, your heart is getting harder every day you reject God's offer of salvation. It is the mercy of the Lord that you did not open your eyes this morning to find yourself in hell. What are you waiting for? You know more Scripture than many believers. The only thing you need to understand is that you are a lost sinner hanging by a thread over the pit of hell fire and you cannot save yourself. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Cast yourself on the mercy of the Lord.

bart · May 2, 2001

psalm 145 3,

i do appreciate the concern for my soul, (you honestly do not know how much i appreciate it)......thank you for your concern.

this is an honest statement:

i do not believe that you are telling me the truth and here is the reason. i am reading one thing in the bible and you are telling me another. i have asked numerous questions that have never been answered. just like yesterday i have sent a reply to you that had a few simple questions in it. and you never replied. i have made this statement before and i will make it again......if a person has the truth, then he/she should be able to stand up and defend it. and it does not matter what kind of questions i ask, if it is the truth, then the truth will prevail. so until you answer my questions about a man being saved (thoroughly), i will not believe a mortal human...........now someone said "bart needs to read the posts again".............BART HAS READ THEM TIME REPEATEDLY, AND DO YOU KNOW WHAT HE SEES,.......I SEE A WHOLE BUNCH OF QUESTIONS THAT HAVE NOT BEEN DEALT WITH DIRECTLY, QUESTIONS THAT HAVE BEEN EVADED, AND QUESTIONS THAT HAVE BEEN IGNORED. sir if you claim to have the truth, then you should be able to answer all of my questions.................they are not hard questions at all..........from here on out, i will not move on until you have the questions answered................SO MY QUESTIONS FROM YESTERDAY STILL STAND. DEAL WITH THEM, PLEASE.

thank you

bart

Aaron · May 2, 2001

Bart,

It seems that you are the one who is being disingenuous. Your questions have been answered completely and in good faith despite your abuse and arrogance. Anyone truly seeking salvation would have been much relieved by the answers supplied.

I have stayed pretty much out of this discussion because it was evident from the beginning that you are wanting to "argue" the quite erroneous easy-believeism position behind a specious pilgrim mask.

My understanding of Proverbs tells me that you need a rod across your back more than sufferage from the fine folks on this board.

Cordially,

SPAM · May 2, 2001

Bart, read carefully.

Bow your head. Pray to God this prayer: "Father, I know that I am a sinner. I also know that you are the Saviour for all who ask and believe. I accept the fact that you are the only hope for eternal life, the One True God. I now believe and ask you to please come into my heart. Save me. Forgive me for my sins. Be Lord of my life in everything I do, or say. Father, by faith I accept this free gift of salvation realizing you've already paid my debt. Thank you for coming into my life and saving me. In Jesus name, Amen."

Bart, if you need it to be spelled out any more, feel free to let me know. But, if you do not believe, at any time during your prayer, Jesus "will not" save you. You have to exercise faith for it to take effect.

As I stated in earlier posts, I have been praying that you will come to know our Saviour. But, if you never do, throughout eternity, these posts will haunt you. Don't delay; this is the most serious decision of your life.

Godspeed.

Psalm145 3 · May 2, 2001

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

TJAcorn · May 2, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SPAM:

As I stated in earlier posts, I have been praying that you will come to know our Saviour. But, if you never do, throughout eternity, these posts will haunt you. Don't delay; this is the most serious decision of your life.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

bart originally asks what do *baptists* believe one must do to be saved. This discussion is not about his salvation! he says himself:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I BELIEVE THAT SALVATION IS BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH

I BELIEVE THAT "IT IS NOT OF YOURSELVES, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD"

I BELIEVE THAT IT IS "NOT OF WORKS, LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST"

I BELIEVE "A MAN HAS TO BELIEVE IN ORDER TO BE SAVED"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

do you really think that he is not saved!! his desires for spiritual truth is not natural for an unsaved man! didn't you get the point of his last post?!?

Now to answer you question, bart:
I believe that a man does not have to be baptized to be saved but a saved man will be baptized. Your error (and the error of nearly everyone else in this discussion) is placing certain works as a prerequisite to salvation. Naturally no one seeks God or will ever choose Him of their own free-will because they are enslaves to sin. It is not until God makes free the man from sin (the point of salvation - God's work) that the man believes, repents, and is baptized. These 3 things WILL be present in the lives of all those God frees from sin. Personally I think the act of baptism is not a definite will happen thing since there is the possibility that the man might die after God frees him from sin and he never has the opportunity to be baptized even though HE HAS THE DESIRE to do so. Christ was baptized to "fulfill all righteousness" (Matt. 3:15)and since Christ's righteousness has been imputed unto us He has fulfilled the necessity of baptism for us. The present practice of baptism is only a sign of what Christ has done for in us.

[ May 02, 2001: Message edited by: TJAcorn ]

TJAcorn · May 2, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SPAM:
TREVOR, in response let me say, I take no offense, but the original question is about salvation, as echoed by Gina.

Bart is entitled to nothing. Other than the grace of God we all are doomed. But, before "truth" can truly be seen, he must, by faith accept it. Just as everyone is, without that acceptance, real truth is skewed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree that you "must be spiritual to understand spiritual things" but even being spiritual we do not undertand all of the truth. Kinda like I don't think you understand that no one can of there own accepts truth through their own faith (as the quote above seems to say). Sorry if that sounds offensive but I am trying to make a point. Yet, I still think you are saved even though I would say that your view of this truth is "skewed".

Yikes! I feel like I'm in hot water now!

Please don't take offense, but the truth is that none of us know all of the truth concerning our salvation.

Trevor

DocCas · May 2, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by TJAcorn:
do you really think that he is not saved!! his desires for spiritual truth is not natural for an unsaved man! didn't you get the point of his last post?!?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>TJ, perhaps you should go back to page three of this topic and look at Bart's own statement, which he was so emphatic about he repeated it 13 times! "I AGREE THAT A MAN IS SAVED BY FAITH.......BUT NOT FAITH ONLY......."

The Bible is very clear that you are either saved by Grace through faith plus nothing or you are not saved at all! Romans 11:6 makes it very clear that you cannot mix grace and works, "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace . But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." God's word is clear, if you try to mix works with grace, you nullify the grace. Grace is no more grace once works is added to it. Bart makes it clear that he believes he must add something to God's grace for salvation. In saying that he makes it clear that he does not know the true Gospel and is, unfortunately, lost in trespass and sin, trying to add his own righteousness to the Righteousness of Christ in violation of Romans 10:3.

TJAcorn · May 2, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Thomas Cassidy:
TJ, perhaps you should go back to page three of this topic and look at Bart's own statement, which he was so emphatic about he repeated it 13 times! "I AGREE THAT A MAN IS SAVED BY FAITH.......BUT NOT FAITH ONLY......."

The Bible is very clear that you are either saved by Grace through faith plus nothing or you are not saved at all! Romans 11:6 makes it very clear that you cannot mix grace and works[/QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hmmm....I'm afraid you might be right but what I am also seeing are those on this board who would say that that "faith" is one's own and not the faith that is the gift of God. For it is only by saving faith(given by God) that we are saved. Not the sort of faith which simply acknowledges existence without sight.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>The Bible is very clear that you are either saved by Grace through faith plus nothing or you are not saved at all! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree 100% but many want to add "plus repentance" or "plus baptism" or "plus confession". But doesn't the scripture go on to say "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them"? I do not think that our repentance saves us or our confessing Christ but I do not separate them from salvation because they ARE ALWAYS THERE with it.

Trevor

I think many baptists are guilty of adding works to grace.

Salvation is the gift of God not given when we "meet the terms" else we would never meet the terms but God changes us and makes us accepted in the beloved.

[ May 02, 2001: Message edited by: TJAcorn ]

Danny · May 2, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by bart:
danny,

thanks for the reply, lets get right down to it...........So far, it has been established that repentance is necessary for salvation. now my question read like this: "in dealing with acts 16:31, ....believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved..... how did repentance get into this scripture?"

on your reply, you have my question quoted above like you were going to answer it. i am just as unclear about where you stand on my question after i have read what you have said as i was before. (please do not take this personally)(for the 6th or 7th time, i say this in all kindness)..........now you might be different, but your doctrine preaches that repentance is necessary, but it also preaches that belief is necessary, yet repentance and belief are not in the same verse, HOW DID YOU GET REPENTANCE INTO ACTS 16:31???????????

please be real clear with your answer.

BART<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bart, this is as clear as I can make it. When you understand repentance as "turning TO God," then you realize that that is the same thing as "believing." To repent is to turn toward God. To believe is to turn to God. They two words are synonymous. In Acts 16:31, if you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, you WILL repent (turn to God for forgiveness and salvation). I hope I've made it clear that "believing", and "repenting" is the same thing. To be saved, you must turn to God, putting your faith in Christ. Turning FROM you sins comes later. So, to re-cap: If you realize you are a lost sinner on the road to hell, and if you BELIEVE in Christ, you are probably going turn to God (repent) for forgiveness, right? Remember, to repent simply means to change your direction, or change your mind. I hope this helped.
Danny

bart · May 2, 2001

good to hear from you mr cassidy,

cassidy says "bart makes it clear that he has to add to God's word". WHERE HAVE I ADDED MR CASSIDY?????????PLEASE ANSWER.............YES, THE BIBLE MAKES IT OH SO CLEAR ABOUT SALVATION BY WORKS (BOASTFUL WORKS AND WORKS OF THE LAW OF MOSES)(BOTH OF THESE TYPES OF WORKS, GOD CONDEMNS, BUT I ASK YOU MR. CASSIDY, WHAT ABOUT JAMES CHAPTER 2?????????? VERSE 24, "YOU SEE THEN HOW THAT BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED AND NOT BY FAITH ONLY"........NOW I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THIS VERSE TALKS ABOUT WORKS ONLY SAVING A PERSON, I BELIEVE THAT IF FAITH IS AN ACTIVE (OR LIVE), THEN THAT FAITH IS ACCOMPANIED BY OBEDIENCE........YOU SEE THE BIBLE TALKS ABOUT 3 KINDS OF WORKS.

1. BOASTFUL WORKS
2. WORKS OF THE LAW OF MOSES
3. WORKS IN OBEDIENCE TO THE COMMANDS OF GOD

NOW GOD CONDEMNS THE FIRST TWO, YET HE SAYS IN THE BIBLE (THROUGH THE PEN OF JAMES) "FOR AS THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD, THEN FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD, BEING ALONE"...............

YOU SEE.....READ THE 11TH CHAPTER OF HEBREWS, "BY FAITH, THE WALLS OF JERICHO FELL DOWN".................WHAT KIND OF FAITH DID THESE PEOPLE HAVE MR CASSIDY???????DID THEY HAVE FAITH ONLY, OR DID THEY HAVE A FAITH THAT WAS COUPLED WITH OBEDIENCE?????????????? LET ME ASK ANOTHER WAY, WHEN DID THE WALLS FALL DOWN MR CASSIDY???????BEFORE OR AFTER OBEDIENCE????????...........SO (IN THIS EXAMPLE, FAITH DID NOT BLESS THESE PEOPLE UNTIL THEY HAD COMPLETED OBEDIENCE, AND WHEN OBEDIENCE WAS COMPLETED, THE WALLS FELL DOWN)SO YOU SEE, FAITH WAS FOLLOWED BY A VERB OF ACTION (NOT BOASTFUL WORKS, AND NOT WORKS OF THE LAW OF MOSES), BUT THEY HAD TBEY THE FATHER BEFORE THEY RECIEVED THE PROMISE..............SO HERE IS THE DEAL..................MR CASSIDY TEACHES THAT PEOPLE ARE SAVED AT THE POINT OF FAITH (FAITH ONLY) AND THERE IS NOTHING THAT COMES AFTER IT (AS FAR AS A VERB OF ACTION)AND JAMES SAYS THAT FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD. SO I CHARGE MR CASSIDY WITH BELIEVING IN A DEAD FAITH................

HEBREWS 5:9----"HE BECAME THE AUTHOR OF ETERNAL SALVATION UNTO ALL THAT OBEY HIM"----------NOW MR CASSIDY, IS OBEDIENCE REQUIRED????????????????????

ILL POST MORE LATER. GOTTA GO

TJAcorn · May 2, 2001

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by bart:
WHAT ABOUT JAMES CHAPTER 2?????????? VERSE 24, "YOU SEE THEN HOW THAT BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED AND NOT BY FAITH ONLY"........NOW I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THIS VERSE TALKS ABOUT WORKS ONLY SAVING A PERSON, I BELIEVE THAT IF FAITH IS AN ACTIVE (OR LIVE), THEN THAT FAITH IS ACCOMPANIED BY OBEDIENCE........YOU SEE THE BIBLE TALKS ABOUT 3 KINDS OF WORKS.

1. BOASTFUL WORKS
2. WORKS OF THE LAW OF MOSES
3. WORKS IN OBEDIENCE TO THE COMMANDS OF GOD

NOW GOD CONDEMNS THE FIRST TWO, YET HE SAYS IN THE BIBLE (THROUGH THE PEN OF JAMES) "FOR AS THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD, THEN FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD, BEING ALONE"...............<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good points! It's the difference between dead faith and saving faith! dead faith never saved anyone usually brings little or no works but saving faith WILL ALWAYS bring works else the faith is not real but dead. I think we are saved only by faith but it's not just any faith, it's a faith that WILL bring works (Eph. 2:10).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>MR CASSIDY TEACHES THAT PEOPLE ARE SAVED AT THE POINT OF FAITH (FAITH ONLY) AND THERE IS NOTHING THAT COMES AFTER IT (AS FAR AS A VERB OF ACTION)AND JAMES SAYS THAT FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD. SO I CHARGE MR CASSIDY WITH BELIEVING IN A DEAD FAITH................<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you might be mistaken about the "there is nothing that comes after it" part, but if you are right then I also would have to charge Mr. Cassidy with believing in a dead faith.

Trevor

Thanks again for the intriguing discussion bart!

[ May 02, 2001: Message edited by: TJAcorn ]

bart · May 3, 2001

hey trevor!

glad to hear from you!!

hey trevor, i agree with mr cassidy, that a man is saved by faith, but i strongly believe that my definition and mr cassidy's definition of faith is different. mr cassidy says that it is faith only......now i want you to notice something about how he goes about explaining this........notice these things:

1. he did not include james chapter 2 in any of his replies

2. he did not include the 11 chapter of hebrews with all of the "by faith" verses.

i do not believe that a person is saved by works only.......but i believe that for a mans faith to be active; that faith must be accompanied by works (works in obedience to the commands of God).........James chapter 2:24...........but lets also look at what paul had to say about it in romans................"abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness".............I RAISE THE QUESTION........WAS ABRAHAM'S BELIEF THE ONLY THING IMPUTED UNTO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS??? (Read James 2:21-22).......and Hebrews 11:17 just like this verse Hebrews 5:9 "he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him"............now i definately ABSOLUTELY DO NOT TAKE THE POSITION THAT ALL A MAN HAS TO DO IS OBEY, but you see obey is all Hebrews 5:9 lists, BUT MY WHOLE POINT IS THAT WE HAVE TO TAKE OTHER SCRIPTURES AND HARMONIZE THEM TOGETHER.

YES I WOULD HAVE THE SAME DOCTRINE AS MR CASSIDY AND "DON" AND "GINA" IF THESE SCRIPTURES WERE NOT IN THE BIBLE.

MARK 16:16
ACTS 2:38
GAL 3:26-27
I PET 3:21
ACTS 22:16

JAMES CHAPTER 2
HEBREWS CHAPTER 11
HEBREWS 5:9

thanks for the replys trevor, i really think that you are giving it a "fair trial"........
thanks again

look forward to hearing from you

bart

Dr. Bob · May 3, 2001

Please, Bart et al, be careful to correctly define terms - like Paul and James did in the NT - before continuing.

When Paul wrote of works he was refering to the works of the Law, legalistic attempts to gain favor with God through our actions and earn salvation. THAT IS CONDEMNED repeatedly.

When James wrote of works he was refering to the outward manifestation in a godly life that follows true conversion - if you don't have this "new creation", you are not really born again. THAT IS APPLAUDED as the model for believers.

So when you debate, understand the frame of reference of the verses you select.

Is a man saved by grace AND works? It will depend on your definition. Words have meaning (a lesson we must remember in spite of the past Presidential legacy).

SPAM · May 3, 2001

Trevor, and you are...... missing this one.
{read all the posts and then decide}

By Bart's own admission, he is looking for salvation. If he isn't, then as I stated earlier, he's yanking some serious chains here.

The whole time we waste board space about things we think we understand, Bart is no closer to salvation.

So Bart, come out and tell us all, are you a christian? If not, you've read all you need to be saved. If you already are saved, what's your point?

Godspeed.

bart · May 3, 2001

why don't you answer that mr griffin,

is a man saved by grace and works????????????????????? ACCORDING TO JAMES CHAPTER 2, HE SAYS THAT FOR A MANS FAITH TO BE ACTIVE OR ALIVE, YES, THIS FAITH MUST BE WITH WORKS (NOT BOASTFUL WORKS, OR WORKS OF THE LAW OF MOSES, BUT WORKS IN OBEDIENCE TO THE COMMANDS OF GOD)SO TO ANSWER THE QUESTION.....YES.....

I'LL AGREE THAT THESE TYPES OF WORKS ARE CONDEMNED BY GOD:

1. BOASTFUL WORKS
2. WORKS OF THE LAW OF MOSES.

BUT NOT ALL WORKS ARE CONDEMNED.
NOW YOU BETTER NOT SAY "BART SAID WE ARE SAVED BY ANY KIND OF WORKS" IF YOU DO, I'LL HAVE TO CALL YOU DOWN. THAT IS NOT WHAT I SAID AT ALL. I SAY EXACTLY LIKE JAMES SAYS "YOU SEE THEN HOW THAT BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED, AND NOT BY FAITH ONLY"

LOOK OVER IN ROMANS WHERE HE IS TALKING ABOUT ABRAHAM BELIEVING GOD AND IT WAS COUNTED UNTO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS................NOW MR GRIFFIN, I AGREE 100%....BUT WAS ABRAHAMS BELIEF THE ONLY THING THAT WAS COUNTED UNTO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS??????OR WAS IT ABRAHAM'S BELIEF AND OBEDIENCE............BUT YOU SEE, THE ONLY ITEM LISTED IN ROMANS WAS BELIEF, AND OVER IN JAMES 2:24---"YOU SEE THEN HOW THAT BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED AND NOT BY FAITH ONLY"........BUT YOU TEACH THAT A MAN IS SAVED BY FAITH ONLY MR GRIFFIN, CAN YOU EXPLAIN THIS.

how about this one mr griffin,

is a man saved by faith only?????? ---james says "you see then how that by works a man is justified and NOT BY FAITH ONLY"

mr griffin says "you see then how that by FAITH ONLY a man is justified"

MR GRIFFIN,-----I AGREE, LET US CORRECTLY DEFINE TERMS HERE, OR BETTER YET, I WILL CHALLENGE YOU TO FILL IN THE BLANK.

JAMES SAYS "FOR AS THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD, THEN FAITH WITHOUT _________ IS DEAD BEING ALONE.

PEOPLE THINK THEY HAVE TO HAVE AN INTERPRETER FOR THIS CONCEPT......THIS ILLUSTRATION IS VERY SIMPLE.....WHEN A PERSON DIES, HIS/HER SPIRIT DEPARTS FROM HIS/HER BODY, IN OTHER WORDS THEY ARE DEAD, (WITHOUT LIFE) AND JAMES GOES ON TO COMPARE FAITH TO THIS CONCEPT......IF YOUR FAITH DOES NOT HAVE WORKS IT IS JUST LIKE THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT............DEAD........NOW, I DON'T NEED SOMEBODY TO EXPLAIN WHAT DEAD MEANS OR THAT FAITH HAS TO HAVE WORKS TO BE CONSIDERED ACTIVE (OR A LIVE FAITH)

SO I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT AGREE THAT JAMES IS TALKING ABOUT A CHANGED LIFE.......................LET ME TELL YOU EXACTLY WHAT JAMES IS TALKING ABOUT........................."FOR AS THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD, THEN FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD BEING ALONE."...............THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT HE IS TALKING ABOUT. PEOPLE GET WAY OUT SOMEWHERE TALKING ABOUT WHAT THEY WISH JAMES WAS TALKING ABOUT,

JAMES SAYS:

1. FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD

2. MR GRIFFIN SAYS "FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS A LIVE FAITH".......

FRIENDS, WHO ARE YOU GOING TO BELIEVE???
AN INSPIRED WRITER OF GOD (JAMES) OR MR GRIFFIN???

TJAcorn · May 3, 2001

bart, I agree with you concerning faith and the fact that faith without works is dead. That truth is why I tried to show the differences between saving faith and dead faith.

but I have some questions for you

1) Do you believe that a man is saved at a certain time and place (ie. at the moment he has faith, or at the moment he is baptized etc.) or is his salvation "being worked out" in a sense by something (works, baptism, etc.)?

2) Is salvation a decision that we make? why or why not?

3)Why was Christ baptized?

Thanks again for the great discussion!

Trevor

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