salvation question

A Calvinist saying "context"! I love it!

 

Well said, Helen.

The problem with the above non-cited quote, that Helen is referrring back to, is that it seeks to impose a 'theological construct' onto a word, absent Scripture or context.

Ed. </font>[/QUOTE]Hello Helen and Ed,

Mark 13:27 says "And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven." What will God do if the elect don't want to go?

Romans 11:7-8 says "What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, as it is written, 'God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear, down to this very day.'" Uh-oh. I guess not all of Israel is "elect" after all.

Hey, wait - who gave non-elect Israel that spirit of stupor? Why didn't He just let them decide?

 

The spirit of stupor came AFTER they had turned away from Him....again...

 

Wrong. He has to answer to the free willer's idea of how God should behave. Or so they think.

 

The fact the He gave us the freedom to want (but not to do) does not mean He is accountable to us. Your mockery shows the poverty of your position. The fact that we actually have choices in this life makes us more accountable to God, not less.

 

But Romans 9 is written to tell us WHY the chosen people of God (Israel) turned away from Him and rejected the Messiah. Paul's reason is that though they were Israel, they were not all Israel. Though they were descended from the physical line of God's chosen people, they were not all chosen for individual salvation. Far from proving that the elect can then choose not to come, Paul is saying that the ones who don't come do so because they are not truly elect, no matter who they are related to.

Faith is the proof of election, not the cause of it.

 

The truth everyone supresses is the truth of God's character (invisible attributes, eternal power and Godhead), which is visible in creation. This is all Romans 1 says. It says nothing about people supressing the truth that God has revealed in His Word. You have to look elsewhere for that.

God has not revealed anyting about salvation in creation, which is what Romans 1 is about. He has revealed His character. Romans 1-3 is written to show us that all humans are in the same sunken ship. We have all rejected and supressed the truth and there is "none who seeks after God." The Bible never indicates that God has revealed enough about Himself for every adult to make a choice about salvation. What about the cannibal in Africa?

We believe this and believe the Bible teaches that all men, because of their fallen natures, will choose the wrong way.

I rejoice with you that your father came to Christ and that God used you to bring him to Himself.

I would hardly consider the family discussions (arguing!) that we have going on here as the same type of thing as arguments between ministers and rabbis.

Actions do speak louder than words. Not everyone is who they claim to be.

Don't call something that a majority of the church has believed for years a heresy. Was Charles Spurgeon a heretic? What about Jonathan Edwards (America's greatest theologian and eventual missionary to Indians), Martin Luther (Reformer), William Carey (father of modern missions), John Newton (author of Amazing Grace), David Brainerd (missionary to American Indians), George Whitefield (evangelist), etc. Were they all heretics? Be very careful with that word.

Ephesians 1:4-5 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will.

1 Corinthians 1:27-29 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; 28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.

It is not the "Calvinist heresy" that says that God chooses someone before they are born, it is God in the Bible that says that. You may or may not choose (of your own free will) to believe that, but it doesn't make it untrue.

If they are not elect, they will be turned off.

This is why
1. I will pray that God will change your heart in this matter as He did mine
and
2. I will continue to say that we can have lives that look good, but if we don't have the gospel, we are wasting our time. I am not saying that you don't have the gospel, I am just you can live right all you want, but if you never get around to opening your mouth and sharing the gospel, people still will not hear the Word, they'll just think you were a nice person.

I still don't understand why you non-Calvinists keep bringing up passages that show people choosing to reject God's revelation of Himself. These passages support our point that mankind is totally depraved and continually rejects until God works supernaturally in their hearts.

 

The text doesn't say that, but besides that, it completely misses the point that not all of Israel was "elect".