Another topic about blasphemy

hrhema,

So does this mean you are a Pentacostal, a charismatic or are you saying you are both, or are you a Baptist?
I'm curious because I thought that tongues was not a Baptistic practice.

[ August 30, 2002, 05:38 PM: Message edited by: TheOliveBranch ]

 

Hrhema,

I never said I was the only one that could read and interpret the Bible, but you do agree that we have the same Bible, right?

The Bible tells you to test things, why are you so adamant that this is wrong?

You mentioned the 120 in the upper room putting a lot of trust in their experience. I beg to differ. Many of them were questioned about whether or not they were drunk. They didn't simply state that it was from God and offer no proof. Did they say "I experienced it so you will never prove me wrong?". Read the words of Peter who spoke to the crowd. He showed them from the scriptures, he quoted the prophets and showed them that without a doubt, this was from God.

And just what was the purpose of their experience? Did they speak in tongues for self edification, or did they speak for the edification of those around them. Was no one understanding what they said, or did they "hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues?"

We could debate point by point on the topics if you like, though this has been beaten to death on this board.

The point I am trying to make now is that any doctrine, any teaching, any spirit must be tested. I have yet to find anyone that speaks in tongues today that passes the test. Yes, Paul spoke in tongues, yes he said not to forbid it, but he DID say that the rules he laid out were the Lord's Command and if these rules were ignored, that person must also be ignored.

You mentioned that there are 2 different tongues, the gift and the sign, this too is unbiblical, no where does the scripture even suggest such a thing.

~Lorelei

 

Post-It,

So you think none of us are capable of finding the truth, therefore what is truth is not really important?

~Lorelei

 

Very well put, Lorelei.

[ August 30, 2002, 10:15 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

I think we all have found some measure of truth. We just can't have it all packed away in our denomination.

My question was, who is to be held responsible if we follow the wrong Theologians/Denomination if it is as you seem to think... cut and dry, one is right and everyone else is wrong.

 

That was a great post susanpet. You took the words right from my heart.

 

I am a member of a Baptist Church. The pastor says that tongues are not for him but he does not question my experience in the least bit. I don't do it in church but in my prayer time.

There are different kind of Pentecostals. So many people on the Baptist Board base what happens on TBN or other way out there charismatic churches as the typical Pentecostal church but they are not all the same.

The group I belonged to years ago we did not sit around like a bunch of monkeys chattering in tongues. This is unscriptural.

YOu say that the Bible does not speak of different tongues but in the Book of Acts when the spirit came upon the 120 in the upper rooms they spoke in languages that they did not know but others who heard them recognized them as languages they knew. This was a supernatural manifestation. Then in other chapters of Acts when believers received the Holy Ghost they spoke in tongues as if it was a sign. There was not other purpose for those tongues but for a sign.

You deny tongues were for a sign but ignore Acts 10. "Even as Peter was saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who had heard the message. The Jewish believers who came with Peter were amazed that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles too. And there could be no doubt about it, for they heard them speaking in tongues, and praising God.

The Bible calls it the Gift of the Holy Spirit. The Bible says that the Jewish believers or Christians new the Gentiles had received this gift because they heard them speaking in tongues.
I don't know why everyone ignores and denies this scripture. This does not sound like what others say they have. I believe in Jesus so I know the Holy Spirit came inside. How do you know? According to this scripture they knew because they heard them speaking in tongues. I did not make this up. The Bible says this.

Paul said he prays in tongues. Obviously that is different then what people did when they received the Holy SPirit as the Gentiles did.

You quoted to me Acts 2:38 but do you yourself follow that scripture. Peter said Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the Name of Jesus Christ. Right there this starts an argument. People don't believe in repentance. Then we get into Baptism. Jesus said in the name of Jesus. Do baptist churches follow this. Absolutely not.
Why did Peter say they were to be baptized? FOR THE REMISSION OF THEIR SINS. Again this throws a kink in most Baptist beliefs. Then Peter said YE SHALL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST. Again another kink. This does not line up with Baptist doctrine but it is Bible.

Why do you ignore the fact that it is called the GIFT of the Holy Ghost. No where does the Bible say when you believe on Jesus the Holy Ghost comes inside. Matter of fact the Bible says that if the same spirit the raised Christ dwell within you then you will be raised up. What spirit dwellt in Christ. According to the Bible the Holy Ghost.

Again the issue about tongues ceasing and your proof that this is based on the word of God or the Bible being translated I am awaiting. I know I will have to wait forever because it just does not state that. That is people personal interpretation. You simply like others are guessing.

 

Hi Post-it,

I think everyone who is a part of following the wrong denomination or Theological belief is responsible. God gave us the Word of God from Genesis to Revelation. He gave us this Word in many good English translations that can be easily understood. In America we have computer programs, internet, commentaries, Greek/Hebrew Word studies, and even (at least where I live) many good bible teachers via the radio. I think we are without excuse if we follow a mainstream denomination that teaches false doctrine. I do also think that the leaders of such organizations may be held more responsible (James 3:1-2). But a lot more often than not there are many people filling those pews, trusting an experience, who never even pick up a Bible other than on Sunday. And then they get to read Acts chapter two. These people are just as capable as the next to study on there own and become more noble than those around them. (Acts 17:11) Instead they remain willingly ignorant. (emphasis on willingly KJV 2 Peter 3:5). They don't have a desire to learn. Maybe because they know deep down the truth lies within those pages of the very book that the like to carry to Church on Sunday morning, and collects dust the rest of the week. But then there are those who appear to be more learned yet still be entirely off. I guess with each individual there is a reason for their error. But that still makes them responsible none the less.

I am so often asked why I am a Baptist. And even then there are so many different kind of Baptist. First I am a Christian who believes in the complete inerrant perfect Word of God. I believe what it teaches is true, and was given to us so that we can know what is true. I so happen to be one of those who likes to put less emphasis on labels, but for understandable purposes I espouse that I am a Baptist because in general, Baptist doctrines tend to be closer to the truth. But as a Baptist I have the sole liberty to study on my own. For the most part, and nearly every time is it the case, another denomination such as Pentecostal, teaches so contrary to the truth that I would not want to be associated with it in any way. Let's face it. If your going to a Pentecostal Church, then you believe the gifts are for today.

With that said, we CAN know the truth. And there IS one truth, not many. When it comes to Salvation, there is only ONE truth. When it comes to Baptism, there is ONE truth. When it comes to believing in Creation there is only ONE truth. When it comes to Tongues and its use there is only ONE truth, not many. And Paul laid out that truth plainly, from Acts 2, 10, 19, (historical) 1 Cor. 12, 13, 14.(doctinal). Peter told us that God has given us ALL things that pertain to life (2 Peter 1:3). He also told us that the Scripture if not of any private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20). Therefore when someone starts to speak in a language that is unknown, and claims that it is from my God, then I want to know what is taking place. Especially when they do it in front of others, and declare to the world that this is from God.

[ August 31, 2002, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: Chet ]

 

Hello hrhema

You said:

I have explained this before. I also know that Lorelei, DHK, Don, Briguy, Katie, DocCas, and others have also.

There are many thing happening in the name of the Holy Spirit. Many are claiming to speak in tongues by the Spirit, laugh in the Spirit, be slain in the Spirit, be drunk in the Spirit, be healed by the Spirit, and many more of the such, all in the name of the Holy Spirit of God. So we need to test this spirit to see if it is indeed the Spirit of God (1 John 4:1) We need to know if what we see happening today is the same thing that the Bible speaks of. This study will show that the things happening in the Church are not the same as what the Bible speaks of. And will show that the Bible teaches that the gifts of the Spirit have ceased and are not longer needed today. Paul list several gifts of the Spirit in the first book of Corinthians in chapter twelve. The letters to the Corinthians were primarily written in order to solve church problems or correct false teaching. This theme should be understood before anyone studies first or second Corinthians. Today we seem to have a vast misunderstanding in many assemblies today as to exactly what "gifts" are and why they were given.

From this chapter we read of the following gifts:

Word of Wisdom
Word of knowledge
Faith
Healing
Working of Miracles
Prophecy
Discerning of spirits
Tongues
Interpretation of tongues

Paul teaches that everyone does not have the same gift, and compares that fact to the human body which is an illustration of the Body of Christ.

1Cor. 12:12
For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.
NASU

This is important to understand in light of the fact that today, many people are wanting to experience the same gift. And not only so, but that everyone's spirituality is seemingly measured by certain gifts, namely the gift of tongues. To go a step further some will determine ones Salvation by evidence of speaking in tongues, urging all to speak in tongues. This is done in spite of the Bible's plain teaching that salvation is granted to those who simply believe in Jesus by faith alone (John 3:16, Eph. 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Acts 16: 29-31)

In 1Cor. 13:8 Paul deals specifically with three gifts. Gifts of which the Corinthians were having the most problems. The gift of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge. In the 14th chapter Paul had to write a great deal about the biggest problem gift of all for these believers, the gift of tongues. Which seems to be the biggest problem “gift” today. The bible teaches that every gift that was mentioned above has ceased. I believe that every gift that is mentioned here in Corinthians has ceased and is no longer given to us in the same way. For example, the gift of wisdom is obtained by study of God through His word. In fact, faith is strengthen the more we study evidence, especially that obtained by the Word of God. We can discern spirits by truth through the Word of God. They have ceased because now we have something that the early church believers did not have, and that is the full complete revelation of God - the Bible. By far, the Bible can do more for the Church than any gift of the Spirit. It is much more reliable, trustworthy and can speak to our heart in ways that go beyond anything extra-biblical.

1Cor. 13:8-13 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.
When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
NASU

The Bible says here that 1. Prophecies shall be done away [fail] 2. Tongues shall cease [or be stilled]. 3. Knowledge shall be done away [vanish]. It would be good to briefly explain the meanings of each of these gifts before proceeding because in the Charismatic circles they are so often miss-defined.

The gift of Prophecyhas always meant to speak for God to the people in a way that would reveal future events. This word does not signify preaching as some proclaim It means to have a real prophetic utterance. Prophecy is to know future events. The Old Testament is full of prophets who spoke to the people for God. One way to tell a false prophet from that of one from God was to simply see if what they prophesied came true. These early believers could not flip to 1 Thessalonians to determine if there would be a rapture. They relied on those with this gift to tell them such things. We have something now so much more trustworthy that is not mixed with human's sin nature. We have the complete revelation of God.

The gift of Knowledge was just that, it was to know about Gods doctrine. It had nothing to do with some psychic ability. Often we hear the phrase "gift of knowledge" associated with some mystical knowledge that is given to a person in a psychic way. For example, after Church services a person who supposedly has the gift of knowledge would tell another member not to go home a certain way because they feel that God has given them the knowledge that there will be an accident. Or a person with this gift of knowledge may know about someone's personal life. Where is the test for this type of thing? You certainly can't test it in light of the Word of God, in that the Bible does not give us the intricate details of such things as accidents. This gift was given to the early church because the Gospel of Christ without the works of the Law was a new doctrine to them. Especially to the Jews (Acts 17:19). There was a new dispensation being ushered in, and with that came certain gifts to help these new believers understand certain theological things. These believers could not simply open their bibles on a Sunday morning to book chapter and verse to learn about doctrine. They needed people who had this gift.

The gift of tongues musts be defined here Biblically. We cannot determine what this gift is by what people today claim to do. It is evident that there are people who are seemingly controlled by something and are speaking in a way that can't be understood. And these same people can call it speaking in tongues, but this may not be the biblical tongues. So let us define biblical tongues. Tongue: ( Greek word is glossa) is the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other nations. In the book of Acts chapter two the apostles began to speak in languages that they were not able to speak before. Was this a special language given of God? Was this the tongues of angels mentioned by Paul (1 Corinthians 13:1)? No, the apostles spoke languages that already existed. Tongues were the ability to speak in a real language. Not in some babble or gibberish. It would be as if a local Church has all English speaking people as members except for one that could speak Spanish. Then if the Spanish speaking person was to get up and start speaking Spanish only the one speaking would understand what was being said. This person would become very useful to someone who came to that Church as a visitor and could only understand Spanish. Now if there were two or even three people in that Church who could speak Spanish and one started to talk in that language, the others could act as an interpreter. When we see "tongues" in the Bible it was real languages. As mentioned the first occurrence of speaking in tongues is in Acts 2, is one of the best places to find the meaning, and see it was real languages.

Acts 2:6-12
When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs-we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!"
NIV

Then in 1Cor. 14 we read:
In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.
NIV

This can’t be missed. If you are part of a local church and someone, or two or three or even more (as usually is the case) start speaking on some language that can’t be identified as a real known language then something is not right! And as we will soon discover, if they are doing this for absolutely no reason at all except to supposedly worship God, then again we have a problem. This is not Biblical in any way. Tongues were not given to worship God.

Looking closer at 1Cor. 13 we find that Paul taught the ceasing of these gifts in parables.

Parable one For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. The gifts were given only in part. They knew in part, because they did not have the complete revelation of God. They prophesy in part because they did not have the complete revelation of God. But when that which is perfect is come, then the in part will be in full. But what is the “which is perfect is come?” The text shows that it could only refer to the Revelation of God, the Word of God. Some people think that Paul is referring to Jesus. But Jesus is not in the context. And “that which” could not be referring to a person, especially the person of Jesus Christ. Instead Paul would have written "And He Who" not "that which". Further, this couldn’t be Jesus because Jesus is going to come back in two different stages. Which stage would this then make these gifts end? At which stage would there not be a need for these three gifts? In the original languages, the "perfect (thing)" is not Christ, but the completed bible. In the orginal language the Greek word translated "perfect" is teleios (tel'-i-os); meaning "perfect" in the sense of "nothing lacking" or "complete." It is neuter, so it cannot possible refer to Jesus, who is masculine. Paul makes it very clear that the gift of tongues would die out. 1 Corinthians 13:8 "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease;" There has to be a time when the gift of tongues would cease. Paul is making this clear. It would be a bit strange if Paul is making this point obvious, that he would leave us in the dark as to when it would happen. He tells us when it will happen. *The Greek word translated "cease" is a future tense, middle deponent voice, indicative mood verb meaning "to cease in and of themselves" or to "die away of themselves." [*I learned the Greek from DocCas here on the BB]

Parable two shows a time frame as to when “that which is perfect” will come. He says, “When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.” Paul is using an illustration of a time frame by using a life-span:

Baby.......Child.............Man..........Death

It is some time in those years that Paul teaches us that he is putting away childish things. Just like in the lifetime of this age of the Church the childish things will be put away. It cannot be after Jesus comes back, because then the lifetime of the Church will be over. But it will and must happen within this age, the time of the Church. What are the childish things within the Church age? When Paul was a child he spake as a child is a reference to tongues. He understood as a Child is reference to knowledge, and he thought as a Child is reference to prophecy. But when he became a Man those things disappeared. When? Sometime in his lifetime. Just like sometime in the Church age those things were to disappear.

Parable three Back to “that which is perfect” For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. This is a reference back to the Word of God. Paul tells the Corinthian church that, when the completed bible is in their hands, they will no longer only have a partial knowledge, but they will know just as they are known, they will see the word of God just as well as they see their own face in a mirror. When we look into the perfect law of liberty (the bible) it shows us ourselves as we really are. To try to make "perfect" refer to Jesus is to emasculate the Savior and distort the scriptures. To try to make the "face to face" be anything more than a metaphor referring to our ability to know the bible, is also to distort the scriptures. The Word of God is that which is perfect. When the Word is complete then that which is in part shall be done away. Scripture will interpret Scripture. We don’t have to guess what the “glass” means. Jesus is not the glass. The glass is the Word:

2 Cor 3:18
But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
NKJV

James 1:22-25
Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it-he will be blessed in what he does.
NIV

Remember the perfection? Could this be obtained from the Bible?

2 Tim 3:16-17
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
(KJV)

Peter also wrote of the greatest prophecy. He tells us about an experience his eyes saw, and ears heard. This experience he had was on the mount of transfiguration. Yet he said, we have a greater prophecy The Word of God. All this is found in 2 Peter chapter one. The Bible is above all human experiences and emotions. When discussing the gifts with those who feel it is still being given and is indeed demonstrated today, they often use experimental arguments. And often failure to dig into God's word is prevalent. The Bible is powerful. It does more for a person than any thing, experience, gift, what eyes may see, what ears may hear what the body may feel. The gifts of the Spirit were communicated through infallible people who can not be trusted while the Word of God can be trusted without question.

Heb 4:12-13 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. (NKJV)

Paul goes one step further in his quest to correct the Corinthian church. He must explain the most misunderstood gift of all, and today it is still so misunderstood. That is the gift of tongues. But even worse, I believe that Satan has deceived many into thinking they are speaking a language for God, when the language they are speaking is not from God. Satan has disguised this spiritual language using Biblical terminology. Just how often is the gift of tongues referred to in Scripture? Acts 2,10,19 those are the historical accounts. Then the doctrinal accounts are found in 1Cor 12,13,14. [*Mark 16:17 is another reference though this is not found in the best manuscript evidence] David did not have the gift, Samuel did not have it. Abraham, Joseph, Ezra, Esther, or any Old Testament Saint had this gift.

This brings us to the main reason this gift was given. It was a sign to the Jews. Namely the unbelieving Jews. The Bible says that the Jews require a sign:

1 Cor 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom

The new dispensation of grace (church age) was being ushered in, and God used these gifts as a sign to the Jews. God always used signs for the Jews. The Jews asked for a sign from Jesus to prove He was who He claimed to be. There were plenty of signs given already. But they sought more. This new dispensation was a “new doctrine” to them.

Acts 17:19-21
Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, "May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we want to know what they mean." (All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.)
NIV

These sign gifts were given to only certain people, to the Apostles. Not just the twelve (Paul replacing Judas), but to those who qualified for this office. How did one qualify?

Acts 1:21-22
Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection."
NIV

They had to be personally acquainted with the Lord's ministry from John's baptism to his
assention. They had to have a first hand account. It is not possible to have apostles today. They are all gone. Lets look at the meaning of apostle from Unger’s Bible Dictionary:

The Bible says that it is by these Apostles that these sign gifts were given.

Acts 5:12
And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people. And they were all with one accord in Solomon's Porch
NKJV

Heb 2:3-4
how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
NKJV

This brings us to the book of Acts and day of Pentecost. Now, the promise of God in Joel 2:28 is given.

Acts 2 "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

It is important to understand this transformation from the age of the law to the age of grace and what exactly has just taken place will help us to understand more about the book of Acts with it's relevance to us today. We are being shown how God in His infinite wisdom and glory sends his Spirit to permanently indwell people of all nations (Acts 2:16-21). We must realize that this is not the first time that His Spirit indwells His people, but it is the first time when God's opens up his covenant and offers His Spirit to indwell believers of any nationality permanently. This was a hard thing for the Jewish people to accept and understand. Up until now, they were God's chosen people. Now, God was shedding His grace upon Gentiles and Samaritans as well, people that were before enemies to the nation of Israel. As we look at how God unfolded His plan, we can identify the transitions that take place and why they were necessary. This goes back to that fact that the Jews require a sign. And the main purpose for this gift of tongues being used. What we must remember is that not everything in the book of Acts applies to us today. As we look at the rest of the chapter of Acts, we will see how unique these experiences were. Only those who were alive at this most glorious and awesome time in history were able to experience this transition. Again this is the first time that anyone has been baptized with the Holy Spirit, it was an impressive moment. This is truly a unique experience as the Holy Spirit now begins to indwell the lives of believers and unite the church as one body in Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13) It is rather obvious from Acts two that this is something of historical only, and is not what happens today. There are no other incidents where believers hear a the "sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind" nor will you see the cloven tongues like fire. We must understand that the book of Acts records historical accounts, and we must be careful to use these events to form a doctrine.

[ August 31, 2002, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: Chet ]

 

Chet

Amen and Amen!! Thanks soooo much for posting that! My baby has been sick and I did not have the time to write all that up! I sure couldn't have done a better job at it nor would I have covered it as thoroughly!

~Lorelei

 

This is my case in point. When I compare the fact that the gifts were given for the edification of the church with how you do not practice your gift in church, but only alone in your prayer time, I can easily conclude that this is not in accordance with the guidelines laid out by Paul in Corinthians. This is exactly why I question your gift.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit were given for one reason and that is to edify the church. You will not find any verse that declares that it is proper to use them in any other way.

Then it goes on to compare the body of Christ to a human body, pointing out how each of us has a role in the church for a specific purpose and that all of us are needed to be complete.

In Chapter 14 Paul reaffirms that the purpose of the gifts are to edify the body.

First you defend speaking in tongues because you believe it is a gift for today but in later defense you say that what you speak is not the gift of tongues.

So which is it? You can not defend the practice of tongues that are not the gift with scriptures that speak to the gift of tongues.

No scripture anywhere in the Bible defines tongues as anything other then the gift. No scripture anywhere in the Bible uses different terms when speaking of tongues. The same word is always used in the same manner.

1 Corinthians chapters 12-14 is speaking about the gifts of the Holy Spirit. That subject never ever changes. To use any reference in those verses to support such a difference is simply in error.

Let me show you a few examples:

Does this in anyway refer to what one does at home? No, simply stated he who speaks in tongues (IN CHURCH) edifies himself, he who prophesies (IN CHURCH) edifies that same body. This is why Paul says those who prophesy are greater, for the entire purpose of the gift is to edify the body.

The subject is always the gift of tongues.

Another example:

Is this talking about the other tongue and not the gift?? NO! He is saying that to be praying this way is unfruitful. In the verses above it he says to seek gifts that edify the church and because this is thier purpose we "should pray that he may interpret what he says." He even clarifies again that he is still speaking about the gifts of tongues in church in verse 16.

He is talking about praying in tongues IN CHURCH and that is why those who come in will not understand.

NEVER does Paul say do one thing at home and another at church NOR does he differentiate in any way a separate tongue for prayer and a separate one as the gift. It just is NOT in the text.

No, actually I confirm that tongues were for a sign and that tongues were only for a sign. That is another reason they are no longer valid. The sign has served it's purpose.

Speaking to Acts 2:38

Read Acts carefully. You will not find one place that shows that the gentiles were given the same message about the baptism of repentance. No other verse in Acts speaks to a so called saving baptism.

Scripture must confirm scripture or else we have nothing to stand on. This one verse can not negate the plethora of verses that say believing is all we must do to be saved. The ones that say it is not of works.

"In the name of " was often used to say "by whose aurhority" you were speaking or doing something in. For example, "In the name of Ceasar I beseach thee!"

To adhere to it as more then that, makes one ignore the instructions laid out by Christ himself.

I am also curious if your pastor knows that you deny the trinity? If you do, how can you call yourself baptist? If you don't, then what is your reasoning for supposing that Peter over ruled Christ's instructions?

Tongues have ceased. Chet has beautifully illustrated it according to the WORD! But again, don't take our word for it, TEST IT! Find someone today, anyone today using these gifts as they were intended. The first statement in your post proved that indeed, you are not.

~Lorelei

 

How often should signs be given from God in this form, after a while it can't be considered a sign anymore.

Clearly, tongues today is not a sign from God, it's a ritual created in celebration of the original Sign.

It is equivalent to signing hymns. I think it can help bring a certain “good feeling” to a person’s worship, even to a church service, but it is not a special language from Heaven. It just allows the person a “feeling” of freedom in expression of Love for God. It is like saying, "I can’t express my love in words, but I will try in song or deed."

I see nothing wrong with this, since it can fall under “worship”. One can worship God by doing a better job at work or a million other ways. This is one of them.

[ September 01, 2002, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

There is evidence in the bible that prophesies shall fail, that tongues shall cease, that
knowledge will vanish away. There is however no evidence that this did happen when the
bible was completed. A large number agree that “when that which is
perfect is come” refers to the return of Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether
there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
KJV

Sorry, but I am not to the point of believing that prophesies shall now fail. I certainly do
not believe that knowledge has vanished away. And I therefore do not believe that
tongues have ceased. Do I think that most of what we wittness today (as far as tongues)
is on the up and up? No, a lot of what I see today does not leave the impression of being
scriptural. But then most of what I see in our churches today doesn’t give me any assurance
of their being scriptural either.
I suppose that I could take some time to refute what has been said here. But I am
fairly confident that most of the posters on this board have already formed their opinions
and greatly searched the scriptures to support those opinions to the extent that they won’t
be swayed.

One example of your error that I will give is:

“This is my case in point. When I compare the fact that the gifts were given for the
edification of the church with how you do not practice your gift in church, but only alone
in your prayer time, I can easily conclude that this is not in accordance with the guidelines
laid out by Paul in Corinthians. This is exactly why I question your gift.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit were given for one reason and that is to edify the church. You
will not find any verse that declares that it is proper to use them in any other way.”


Well how about this verse:

1 Cor 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let
him speak to himself, and to God.
KJV


And I will conclude with Paul’s own words:

1 Cor 14:36-40 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the
things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if any man be
ignorant, let him be ignorant. 39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not
to speak with tongues. 40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
KJV

 

Where does the Bible say that after tongues cease they will be ritually copied in celebration of the original???

Do people ritually practice healing in celebration of that sign that no longer exists?

It may be a ritual, but it is not a biblical one.

Paul gave the instructions on how this gift was to be used, I didn't read anywhere that said it was equivalent to singing hymns or that it was to be an expression of love with a feeling of freedom.

And if it isn't a special language from heaven like they claim it to be, what is it???

Again, there is no biblical evidence for anything you said.

~Lorelei

 

It doesn't matter how many people believe one thing or another, what matters is the evidence they have to support thier claim.

Chet beautifully demonstrated in depth why these verses were speaking about the Word of God and not Christ Himself. He gave other scriptures that also referred to the Word as a looking glass. He didn't just say, "a lot of people think it is the word", and leave it at that. He spent a lot of time proving it according to God's Word. Please read what he has to say again, even if you don't agree, at least acknowledge that he has given more evidence then anyone that says it refers to Jesus can give.

No other verses refer to Jesus as that.
I do not even recall any verses that refer to Jesus as a looking glass. The most common reason that people support that theory is that they want to explain the gift that they experience. Claiming to have one of the gifts is not evidence that they have not ceased. As I have clearly shown the scripture tells us to test those claims with the word. Those claims fall short.

So you believe that the Bible is incomplete and further prophesies are yet to be given?

As for knowledge, how does one gain knowledge today? Is it a mysterious gift, or does it come from a sincere and diligent study of the Word?

The key word is silent. They can't speak in tongues to themselves and to God out loud and be silent at the same time, now can they? If you figure out how this can be done, let me know.

Remember also that women were always to be silent in the churches, so they should never speak in tongues.

So often people are so busy reading thier doctrines into the text that the simplest of words and phrases get swept aside. Like those who quote the verse about the Spirit praying for us with groanings that can not be uttered. This is supposed to support speaking in tongues, but tongues must be uttered. One must be careful to look at the context.

I also loved how Paul ended his chapter, reminding everyone that what he said was not his own way of doing things, but it was indeed the Lord's command. If anyone didn't follow those instructions they were to be ignored. Yes, he said not to forbid speaking in tongues, but it is obvious from the verse above that they were not to be forbidden IF and only if they were following the Lord's command he had just given them. Otherwise they were to be ignored. Surely you don't imply that after all those instructions Paul said but let anyone do what they want regardless of what I just said?

I do beleive that tongues have ceased, but as I said, I confirm that belief by testing it with scripture and each time I find someone claiming to have this gift, they are always practicing it in a way that violates those instructions of the Lord. This only confirms that belief.

~Lorelei

 

You are correct. I don't endorse it as being Biblical but it should be acceptable given no harm is done and that it can be argued that it is a form of worship. Worship methods are subjective and need not be Biblical. I don't believe that it should be used in connection with prophecy in Church as I still say that would be testing God.

I don't know how these interperters of tongues sound today, but back in the 1970's God spoke with a King James English style. "Yea, shall the Church listen forth, and believeth in what I'm about to sayith." Not sure why it wasn't interpreted into modern English.

I wonder if they still use Old English when interpreting tongues? Anyone?

[ September 02, 2002, 01:19 AM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

I would agree IF it were pertaining to something that scripture doesn't specifically address. For example, we aren't told what songs to sing, or how many, just to sing. This is something that is subjective.

HOWEVER tongues do NOT fall into this category because Paul spent an entire chapter addressing exactly how tongues were to be used, therefore, if anyone speaks in a tongue, it must be done according to what the scriptures say.

As for the Old English interpretation? Sorry, but I have to say that would make me question the validity of the interpretation as well as the tongue. There was a prophet that interpreted in Old English once, his name was Joseph Smith.

~Lorelei

 

Hi Post-it.

I can’t agree with you in that tongues is simply a form of worship. Pagans worship in the same exact way. Jesus made it clear that His desire for true worship was those who worship Him in truth and spirit. There is absolutely nothing truthful about today’s tongues movement. It is a distraction, un-orderly, in most cases fake, and in most cases not sincere. Furthermore, it is in violation if the clear truthful testimony of the Scripture. To get yourself all worked up into such a state as this can not be honoring to God, especially when you are exposing that it is directly from God. He said to be sober minded, this certainly is not being sober minded.

 

Lorelei

Amen, a thousand times, AMEN. Very well written.

God Bless