The Sovereignty of God

KenH · Jul 15, 2002

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
What does that say about the man who was saved after reading Grace Unlimited, by Clark Pinnock? What does that mean?

I am speaking only about my own situation. You will have to speak to your own.

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken
Were it not for grace...

KenH · Jul 15, 2002

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
Why are you putting this restriction on God? ?

I contend that His desire for us to freely respond to Him is greater than a desire to save us against our will.

Because God does not fail in His purposes and does not let us go when we are born again.

I am not the one restricting God in my theology. You restrict God by saying that He cannot save anyone unless a person lets Him do so.

I do not believe that God saves anyone against their will - He graciously gives him a new nature and the will follows.

What are you saying God's will is if you also believe He cannot fail in His purposes? Do you believe it is His will for everyone to be saved, or do you believe it is His will for everyone to be given a chance to be saved? These are mutually exclusive, so you can't believe it's both.

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken
Were it not for grace...

[ July 15, 2002, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

pinoybaptist · Jul 15, 2002

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
Because it is not for everyone.
Isaiah 53:5:
But he was wounded for our (not for humankind's) transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities (not for humankind's), the chastisement of our peace was upon him, and by his stripes we are healed (not humankind).
>>I think the above verse and the rest of Isaiah 53 is very personal, very specific, and very discriminating. God's sacrifice of himself in the person of his Son was intended for many , but not all.<<

It is very specific. Isaiah is speaking to the nation of Israel (See previous chapter). To take it as you do implies that Christ died only for the nation of Israel. Just a problem with your interpretation.[/QUOTE]No, Scott, according to your theology, Christ suffered and redeemed only the nation of Israel, since you point out that God was speaking to the nation of Israel. Were the Gentiles then only an afterthought for God ?

Paul in his letter to the Romans spoke of spiritual Israel apart from the national Israel.
God here was speaking of, not to, His people, the spiritual Israel, the elect of God, his redeemed Jerusalem (ch.52:9).

Primitive Baptist · Jul 15, 2002

It would've been in vain for Jesus Christ to die for the whole nation of Israel. Keep on teaching lies and twisting the Scripture to your own destruction.

"But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." [John 12:37-40]

pinoybaptist · Jul 15, 2002

In deference to the requirements that posts be short, I will post only those parts of Mr. Pink's writings that I believe relevant to how God's sovereignty and predestinating grace are debated today.
I apologize to the administrators for past long posts.

The Sovereignty of God the Father in Salvation

Not only has God the right to do as He wills with the creatures of His own hands, but He exercises this right, and nowhere is that seen more plainly than in His predestinating grace. Before the foundation of the world God made a choice, a selection, an election. Before His omniscient eye stood the whole of Adam's race, and from it He singled out a people and predestinated them "to be conformed to the image of His Son," "ordained" them unto eternal life. Many are the Scriptures which set forth this blessed truth, seven of which will now engage our attention.

"As many as were ordained to eternal life, believed" (Acts 13:48). Every artifice of human ingenuity has been employed to blunt the sharp edge of this Scripture and to explain away the obvious meaning of these words, but it has been employed in vain, though nothing will ever be able to reconcile this and similar passages to the mind of the natural man. "As many as were ordained to eternal life, believed." Here we learn four things: First, that believing is the consequence and not the cause of God's decree. Second, that a limited number only are "ordained to eternal life," for if all men without exception were thus ordained by God, then the words "as many as" are a meaningless qualification. Third, that this "ordination" of God is not to mere external privileges but to "eternal life," not to service but to salvation itself. Fourth, that all-"as many as," not one less-who are thus ordained by God to eternal life will most certainly believe.

The comments of the beloved Spurgeon on the above passage are well worthy of our notice. Said he, "Attempts have been made to prove that these words do not teach predestination, but these attempts so clearly do violence to language that I shall not waste time in answering them. I read: 'As many as were ordained to eternal life believed,' and I shall not twist the text but shall glorify the grace of God by ascribing to that grace the faith of every man. Is it not God who gives the disposition to believe? If men are disposed to have eternal life, does not He-in every case-dispose them? Is it wrong for God to give grace? If it be right for Him to give it, is it wrong for Him to purpose to give it? Would you have Him give it by accident? If it is right for Him to purpose to give grace today, it was right for Him to purpose it before today-and, since He changes not-from eternity."

ScottEmerson · Jul 15, 2002

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
No, Scott, according to your theology, Christ suffered and redeemed only the nation of Israel, since you point out that God was speaking to the nation of Israel. Were the Gentiles then only an afterthought for God ?

That's just it - I don't think he just died for Israel - I was just using your translation for "us." Since Isaiah was not refering to Gentiles, then according to your own "rules" or interpretation, Christ died only for Israel. I don't believe that at all.0

Paul in his letter to the Romans spoke of spiritual Israel apart from the national Israel.
God here was speaking of, not to, His people, the spiritual Israel, the elect of God, his redeemed Jerusalem (ch.52:9).[/QB]

Where is your evidence that Isaiah was not talking about the national Israel and only the spiritual Israel? How do you know that Isaiah is not speaking of everyone?

Ray Berrian · Jul 15, 2002

Dr. Clark H. Pinnock was once a Calvinist. He is one of the four views offered in the book, "Predestination & Free Will." You will have to read carefully; you will find some error in each of these writers. The other writers are: John Feinberg, Norman Geisler, Bruce Reichenbach . . .

Ray Berrian, Th.D.

tyndale1946 · Jul 15, 2002

Felt comments not totally in line with topic... Moved and started own thread... Brother Glen

[ July 16, 2002, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

tyndale1946 · Jul 15, 2002

Giving credit where credit is due!... Nice post Pinoybaptist!... Brother Glen

pinoybaptist · Jul 16, 2002

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Where is your evidence that Isaiah was not talking about the national Israel and only the spiritual Israel? How do you know that Isaiah is not speaking of everyone?

Evidence ? Okay. You tell me, Scott. Is Israel today a Christian nation ? Is it a nation whose
God is the same God christians worship ? Does it make a national assertion that they have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb of Glory ?

How do I know that Isaiah is not speaking of everyone ? You tell me, Scott. Are all men, children, and women on this planet Earth now saved souls ?

pinoybaptist · Jul 16, 2002

More on the Sovereignty of God, by AW Pink:

Excerpts from "The Sovereignty of God the Father in Salvation"

"A remnant according to the election of grace." Here the cause of election is traced back to its source. The basis upon which God elected this "remnant" was not faith foreseen in them, because a choice founded upon the foresight of good works is just as truly made on the ground of works as any choice can be, and in such a case it would not be "of grace"; for, says the Apostle, "if by grace, then it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace"; which means that grace and works are opposites, they have nothing in common, and will no more mingle than oil and water. Thus the idea of inherent good foreseen in those chosen, or of anything meritorious performed by them, is rigidly excluded. "A remnant according to the election of grace" signifies an unconditional choice resulting from the Sovereign favor of God; in a word, it is absolutely a gratuitous election.

"For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty: and base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in His presence" (1 Cor. 1:26-29). Three times over in this passage reference is made to God's choice, and choice necessarily supposes a selection, the taking of some and the leaving of others. The Chooser here is God Himself, as said the Lord Jesus to the Apostles, "Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you" (John 15:16). The number chosen is strictly defined-"not many wise men after the flesh, not many noble," etc., which agree with Matthew 20:16, "So the last shall be first, and the first last; for many be called, but few chosen." So much then for the fact of God's choice; now mark the objects of His choice.

ScottEmerson · Jul 16, 2002

Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
Evidence ? Okay. You tell me, Scott. Is Israel today a Christian nation ? Is it a nation whose
God is the same God christians worship ? Does it make a national assertion that they have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb of Glory ?

How do I know that Isaiah is not speaking of everyone ? You tell me, Scott. Are all men, children, and women on this planet Earth now saved souls ?[/QB]

You've missed the point entirely. I'm just using your terminology in your interpretation of the Isaiah passage. Isaiah is still speaking to the people of Israel when He writes "He was wounded for our transgressions" and so on. The point is that Isaiah does not exclude the Gentiles. Christ agrees with this - I came for the Jews first, then the Gentiles. Do Jews worship the same God as Christians? I'd say that true Jews do. They don't believe Christ was the Messiah but God hasn't changed (he's immutable, remember?) In this light, what Paul says in Romans 9-11 takes a different timbre.

pinoybaptist · Jul 16, 2002

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
Evidence ? Okay. You tell me, Scott. Is Israel today a Christian nation ? Is it a nation whose
God is the same God christians worship ? Does it make a national assertion that they have been redeemed by the blood of the Lamb of Glory ?

How do I know that Isaiah is not speaking of everyone ? You tell me, Scott. Are all men, children, and women on this planet Earth now saved souls ?

You've missed the point entirely. I'm just using your terminology in your interpretation of the Isaiah passage. Isaiah is still speaking to the people of Israel when He writes "He was wounded for our transgressions" and so on. The point is that Isaiah does not exclude the Gentiles. Christ agrees with this - I came for the Jews first, then the Gentiles. Do Jews worship the same God as Christians? I'd say that true Jews do. They don't believe Christ was the Messiah but God hasn't changed (he's immutable, remember?) In this light, what Paul says in Romans 9-11 takes a different timbre.[/QB][/QUOTE]I think that originally we were talking about how God elected certain individuals unto salvation, Scott. And this Isaiah passage was brought up to show that Christ did not suffer for the sins of all humankind but for the sins of many among humankind.
Then you came up with the statement that God thru the prophet Isaiah was addressing national Israel, in answer to my statement that the Israel referred to was spiritual Israel (or whatever order our conversation went on). To me, and I think for many Christians, spiritual Israel means the redeemed, whether Jew or Gentile.
Now, you are saying that in this scripture, God is not leaving out the Gentiles. And you also say that the true Jews are those who worship the same God Christians worship. I will agree with you that God did not leave out the Gentiles, for he is no respecter of a person's race, rank, wealth, or stature, however, not all Gentiles are among his chosen ones, just as not all Jews are among his chosen ones, which is what Paul was saying in Romans 9.
And now, because you yourself say that the true Jews are those who worship the God Christians do, you seem to agree that God chooses some and passes by some, which is his sovereign right.

Baptist Believer · Jul 16, 2002

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
Why are you putting this restriction on God? ?

I contend that His desire for us to freely respond to Him is greater than a desire to save us against our will.

Because God does not fail in His purposes and does not let us go when we are born again.

I am not the one restricting God in my theology. You restrict God by saying that He cannot save anyone unless a person lets Him do so.[/QUOTE]I never said that God *cannot* save anyone unless a person lets Him do so.

I have said that God *will* not save anyone against their choice. It has nothing to do with power of sovereignty. God set up the "rules" and He lives by them. They are in His own nature and He doesn't act contrary to Himself.

I do not believe that God saves anyone against their will - He graciously gives him a new nature and the will follows.

Click to expand...

The way I understand scripture, God gives us the ability to believe and calls us to Himself. When we respond to His call, we are given the Spirit and a new nature is born in us.

What are you saying God's will is if you also believe He cannot fail in His purposes?

Click to expand...

Perhaps a better emphasis to put on it would be that God desires that all would come to repentance.

Do you believe it is His will for everyone to be saved,

Click to expand...

Yes.

or do you believe it is His will for everyone to be given a chance to be saved?

Click to expand...

Yes, but it is more than His will (or desire). I'm convinced that everyone has the opportunity to be saved.

These are mutually exclusive, so you can't believe it's both.

Click to expand...

<Bzzzz> Sorry, but thank you for playing</Bzzzz>

If as Paul explains in the first part of Romans that there is enough information about God given in creation to for everyone to be without excuse, then there is enough information in creation to start seeking the Creator. The scripture promises that all who seek after God will find Him. The Spirit is working in ways that we cannot imagine throughout the world, even where the gospel is not well known, drawing people to greater truth and understanding. People who have not heard a gospel witness are similar to people of the Old Testament who would not know who Jesus would be. They were saved by grace through faith just like people in the New Testament. Of course, we who have heard the gospel, know that the fullest revelation of God is in Jesus Christ and that we are saved through His death and resurrection. The people of Old Testament days were saved just like Abraham, by believing God (and His provision -- Who would be Jesus) and it was reckoned to them as righteousness (Gen 15:6, Galatians 3:6-9, Romans 4:1-25).

I'm reminded of a story in an old Billy Graham book (I think it was "How to be Born Again") where he told of a missionary working in China who passed by an old man early in the morning along the side of a path. The missionary had urgent business, but after he passed the man he felt convicted about talking to him. Unable to return immediately, the missionary prayed that he would have another chance to meet with the man. When the missionary passed again that evening, he saw the man again and stopped to talk. The missionary told the story of the gospel and the man just soaked it up. He listened intently and smiled and nodded. The missionary finished his talk with an appeal for the man to come to Jesus. The man repeated the name of Jesus and smiled, "Jesus, that's His name!" The man immediately received the truth when he heard it because he had been seeking after God, prompted by the Holy Spirit. He already knew God after a fashion, but did not know all of the specifics of his faith until God sent the missionary to give more information.

[ July 16, 2002, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]

pinoybaptist · Jul 17, 2002

Continued from The Sovereignty of God by AW Pink

I. The Sovereignty of God the Father in Salvation

The ones spoken of above as chosen of God are "the weak things of the world, base things of the world, and things which are despised." But why? To demonstrate and magnify His grace. God's ways as well as His thoughts are utterly at variance with man's. The carnal mind would have supposed that a selection had been made from the ranks of the opulent and influential, the amiable and cultured, so that Christianity might have won the approval and applause of the world by its pageantry and fleshly glory. Ah, but "that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God" (Luke 16:15). God chooses the "base things." He did so in Old Testament times. The nation which He singled out to be the depository of His holy oracles and the channel through which the promised Seed should come was not the ancient Egyptians, the imposing Babylonians, nor the highly civilized and cultured Greeks. No; that people upon whom Jehovah set His love and regarded as 'the apple of His eye' were the despised, nomadic Hebrews. So it was when our Lord tabernacled among men. The ones whom He took into favored intimacy with Himself and commissioned to go forth as His ambassadors were, for the most part, unlettered fishermen. And so it has been ever since. So it is today: at the present rates of increase, it will not be long before it is manifested that the Lord has more in despised China who are really His, than He has in the highly favored U.S.A.; more among the uncivilized blacks of Africa, than He has in cultured (?) Germany! And the purpose of God's choice, the raison d' etre of the selection He has made is, "that no flesh should glory in His presence"-there being nothing whatever in the objects of His choice which should entitle them to His special favors, then, all the praise will be freely ascribed to the exceeding riches of His manifold grace.
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him; having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will... In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will" (Eph. 1:3-5, 11). Here again we are told at what point in time-if time it could be called-when God made choice of those who were to be His children by Jesus Christ. It was not after Adam had fallen and plunged his race into sin and wretchedness, but long ere Adam saw the light, even before the world itself was founded, that God chose us in Christ. Here also we learn the purpose which God had before Him in connection with His own elect: it was that they "should be holy and without blame before Him"; it was "unto the adoption of children"; it was that they should "obtain an inheritance." Here also we discover the motive which prompted Him. It was "in love that He predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself"-a statement which refutes the oft made and wicked charge that, for God to decide the eternal destiny of His creatures before they are born, is tyrannical and unjust. Finally, we are informed here, that in this matter He took counsel with none, but that we are "predestinated according to the good pleasure of His will."

Glory to God !!

From righteous Job to the thief on the cross, none can claim God saved him because he had a conscious act in the accepting of salvation !!

Pastor Larry · Jul 17, 2002

Originally posted by Baptist Believer:
God set up the "rules" and He lives by them. They are in His own nature and He doesn't act contrary to Himself. ... God gives us the ability to believe and calls us to Himself. When we respond to His call, we are given the Spirit and a new nature is born in us.

Why does God have to abide by his nature while man does not?

I'm convinced that everyone has the opportunity to be saved.

Judas?? He was called the Son of Perdition from the OT. Pharoah? God said "I will harden his heart" prior to any of the interchange between Moses and Pharaoh and later God says I have raised him up to show my power.

If as Paul explains in the first part of Romans that there is enough information about God given in creation to for everyone to be without excuse, then there is enough information in creation to start seeking the Creator. The scripture promises that all who seek after God will find Him.

But this same "first part of Romans" tells us that no one is seeking God. All who seek will find; but apart frmo the Father drawing, no one seeks.

NO one will be saved apart from conscious belief in Christ Jesus according to the "second part of Romans." Even in the OT, people were saved by responding to the salvific revelation from God. Now that revelation for salvation comes only in the form of Jesus Christ.

ScottEmerson · Jul 17, 2002

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Judas?? He was called the Son of Perdition from the OT. Pharoah? God said "I will harden his heart" prior to any of the interchange between Moses and Pharaoh and later God says I have raised him up to show my power.

Judas is quite possible in heaven. CHrist told him in Matthew that he, along with the other eleven disciples would be in heaven, judging the twelve nations of Israel. He died before Christ did, and was not under the same salvific rules. I would venture to say that he was, indeed, "saved."

KenH · Jul 17, 2002

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Judas is quite possible in heaven. CHrist told him in Matthew that he, along with the other eleven disciples would be in heaven, judging the twelve nations of Israel. He died before Christ did, and was not under the same salvific rules. I would venture to say that he was, indeed, "saved."

Scott,

Now I starting to really, really be concerned about your spiritual health.

(John 17:12 NKJV) "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

(Acts 1:20 NKJV) "For it is written in the book of Psalms: 'Let his dwelling place be desolate, And let no one live in it'; and, 'Let another take his office.'

Take spiritual stock of yourself, Scott, take spiritual stock.

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken
Were it not for grace...

[ July 17, 2002, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

Pastor Larry · Jul 17, 2002

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Judas is quite possible in heaven. CHrist told him in Matthew that he, along with the other eleven disciples would be in heaven, judging the twelve nations of Israel. He died before Christ did, and was not under the same salvific rules. I would venture to say that he was, indeed, "saved."

WOW ... unbelievable. Ken addressed this sufficiently except for one point. There are no different salvific rules. Salvation is by grace through faith in every age.

ScottEmerson · Jul 17, 2002

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
Now I starting to really, really be concerned about your spiritual health.

Why?

(John 17:12 NKJV) "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

He was lost at the time. Didn't he repent of himself? What happened to those who died before Christ?

(Acts 1:20 NKJV) "For it is written in the book of Psalms: 'Let his dwelling place be desolate, And let no one live in it'; and, 'Let another take his office.'

Matthias took his office in the Twelve after Christ's ascension - but does that change Christ's words, when called him a sheep (Matthew 10:16). What does his field being desolate have to do with his salvation? (Also read Matthew 10:1-4 and Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30)

It is worth noting, whether you agree with the source or not, that the Catholic Church does not teach that Judas went to Hell - neither do the Greek Orthodox.

Take spiritual stock of yourself, Scott, take spiritual stock.

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken
Were it not for grace...[/QB][/QUOTE]

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