The Sovereignty of God

I am speaking only about my own situation. You will have to speak to your own.

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken
Were it not for grace...

 

I am not the one restricting God in my theology. You restrict God by saying that He cannot save anyone unless a person lets Him do so.

I do not believe that God saves anyone against their will - He graciously gives him a new nature and the will follows.

What are you saying God's will is if you also believe He cannot fail in His purposes? Do you believe it is His will for everyone to be saved, or do you believe it is His will for everyone to be given a chance to be saved? These are mutually exclusive, so you can't believe it's both.

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken
Were it not for grace...

[ July 15, 2002, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

It would've been in vain for Jesus Christ to die for the whole nation of Israel. Keep on teaching lies and twisting the Scripture to your own destruction.

"But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed? Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them." [John 12:37-40]

 

That's just it - I don't think he just died for Israel - I was just using your translation for "us." Since Isaiah was not refering to Gentiles, then according to your own "rules" or interpretation, Christ died only for Israel. I don't believe that at all.0

Where is your evidence that Isaiah was not talking about the national Israel and only the spiritual Israel? How do you know that Isaiah is not speaking of everyone?

 

Dr. Clark H. Pinnock was once a Calvinist. He is one of the four views offered in the book, "Predestination & Free Will." You will have to read carefully; you will find some error in each of these writers. The other writers are: John Feinberg, Norman Geisler, Bruce Reichenbach . . .

Ray Berrian, Th.D.

 

Felt comments not totally in line with topic... Moved and started own thread... Brother Glen

[ July 16, 2002, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

Giving credit where credit is due!... Nice post Pinoybaptist!... Brother Glen

 

You've missed the point entirely. I'm just using your terminology in your interpretation of the Isaiah passage. Isaiah is still speaking to the people of Israel when He writes "He was wounded for our transgressions" and so on. The point is that Isaiah does not exclude the Gentiles. Christ agrees with this - I came for the Jews first, then the Gentiles. Do Jews worship the same God as Christians? I'd say that true Jews do. They don't believe Christ was the Messiah but God hasn't changed (he's immutable, remember?) In this light, what Paul says in Romans 9-11 takes a different timbre.

 

I am not the one restricting God in my theology. You restrict God by saying that He cannot save anyone unless a person lets Him do so.</font>[/QUOTE]I never said that God *cannot* save anyone unless a person lets Him do so.

I have said that God *will* not save anyone against their choice. It has nothing to do with power of sovereignty. God set up the "rules" and He lives by them. They are in His own nature and He doesn't act contrary to Himself.

The way I understand scripture, God gives us the ability to believe and calls us to Himself. When we respond to His call, we are given the Spirit and a new nature is born in us.

Perhaps a better emphasis to put on it would be that God desires that all would come to repentance.

Yes.

Yes, but it is more than His will (or desire). I'm convinced that everyone has the opportunity to be saved.

&lt;Bzzzz&gt; Sorry, but thank you for playing&lt;/Bzzzz&gt;

If as Paul explains in the first part of Romans that there is enough information about God given in creation to for everyone to be without excuse, then there is enough information in creation to start seeking the Creator. The scripture promises that all who seek after God will find Him. The Spirit is working in ways that we cannot imagine throughout the world, even where the gospel is not well known, drawing people to greater truth and understanding. People who have not heard a gospel witness are similar to people of the Old Testament who would not know who Jesus would be. They were saved by grace through faith just like people in the New Testament. Of course, we who have heard the gospel, know that the fullest revelation of God is in Jesus Christ and that we are saved through His death and resurrection. The people of Old Testament days were saved just like Abraham, by believing God (and His provision -- Who would be Jesus) and it was reckoned to them as righteousness (Gen 15:6, Galatians 3:6-9, Romans 4:1-25).

I'm reminded of a story in an old Billy Graham book (I think it was "How to be Born Again") where he told of a missionary working in China who passed by an old man early in the morning along the side of a path. The missionary had urgent business, but after he passed the man he felt convicted about talking to him. Unable to return immediately, the missionary prayed that he would have another chance to meet with the man. When the missionary passed again that evening, he saw the man again and stopped to talk. The missionary told the story of the gospel and the man just soaked it up. He listened intently and smiled and nodded. The missionary finished his talk with an appeal for the man to come to Jesus. The man repeated the name of Jesus and smiled, "Jesus, that's His name!" The man immediately received the truth when he heard it because he had been seeking after God, prompted by the Holy Spirit. He already knew God after a fashion, but did not know all of the specifics of his faith until God sent the missionary to give more information.

[ July 16, 2002, 11:06 PM: Message edited by: Baptist Believer ]

 

Why does God have to abide by his nature while man does not?

Judas?? He was called the Son of Perdition from the OT. Pharoah? God said "I will harden his heart" prior to any of the interchange between Moses and Pharaoh and later God says I have raised him up to show my power.

But this same "first part of Romans" tells us that no one is seeking God. All who seek will find; but apart frmo the Father drawing, no one seeks.

NO one will be saved apart from conscious belief in Christ Jesus according to the "second part of Romans." Even in the OT, people were saved by responding to the salvific revelation from God. Now that revelation for salvation comes only in the form of Jesus Christ.

 

Judas is quite possible in heaven. CHrist told him in Matthew that he, along with the other eleven disciples would be in heaven, judging the twelve nations of Israel. He died before Christ did, and was not under the same salvific rules. I would venture to say that he was, indeed, "saved."

 

Scott,

Now I starting to really, really be concerned about your spiritual health.

(John 17:12 NKJV) "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

(Acts 1:20 NKJV) "For it is written in the book of Psalms: 'Let his dwelling place be desolate, And let no one live in it'; and, 'Let another take his office.'

Take spiritual stock of yourself, Scott, take spiritual stock.

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken
Were it not for grace...

[ July 17, 2002, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

WOW ... unbelievable. Ken addressed this sufficiently except for one point. There are no different salvific rules. Salvation is by grace through faith in every age.

 

Why?

He was lost at the time. Didn't he repent of himself? What happened to those who died before Christ?

Matthias took his office in the Twelve after Christ's ascension - but does that change Christ's words, when called him a sheep (Matthew 10:16). What does his field being desolate have to do with his salvation? (Also read Matthew 10:1-4 and Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30)

It is worth noting, whether you agree with the source or not, that the Catholic Church does not teach that Judas went to Hell - neither do the Greek Orthodox.

Take spiritual stock of yourself, Scott, take spiritual stock.

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken
Were it not for grace...[/QB][/QUOTE]