The Sovereignty of God

Salvation requires us to believe that Christ is Lord here after Christ's death. Before that, it wasn't a requirement.

 

That is not a different requirement. It is a different content of the faith required. In any event, it makes no difference in teh case of Judas.

 

And what is my understanding of salvation?

From Psalms 90:1-2

Two statements.

1. Since Adam, God has been the Hebrews dwelling place.
2. Before you created the world, you were God.

It's hard to be the dwelling place of people who haven't even been created yet. You're combining two verses that say two similar, yet different, things.

 

That is not a different requirement. It is a different content of the faith required. In any event, it makes no difference in teh case of Judas.</font>[/QUOTE]What do you think happened to those who died before Christ? Were they preached to by Christ during the time he died?

What happened to Lazarus and the rich man?

Is it possible that Judas, in Hades, was preached to by Jesus in Hell?

 

I definitely think that God ordained a group of people to follow Him. Just not the individuals who made up that group.

[/QUOTE]It may be hard for you or me, or for Moses, but certainly not for God, Scott. And He is the dwelling place not only of the Hebrews, but also of His elect people from the Gentile nations.[/quote]

That would be great, but that's not what the verse says.

But falsely interpreting it isn't exactly the BEST thing to do. Read it again, very carefully, and perhaps notice the separation (it's found in the Hebrew as well).

 

You mean the twelve disciples were a lucky guess?Was the betrayal of Judas a suprise?Was Jesus just shifting the odds in His favor by appearing to Paul on the road to Damascus or did He choose Paul according to His eternal Plan?Do you think Paul had his conversion in mind when he talked about God's foreknowledge and predestination or did he consider himself an exception to the rule?

While I'm in Acts, how about another event that displays the sovereignty of God.Was the stoning of Stephen just a coincidence?Did God get lucky as a result of that incident which sparked a terrible persecution and sent the early church scattering throughout Samaria and Judea and thereby spreading the Gospel or was this part of God's plan?

I would love to hear your interpretation of Romans 8 & 9.I don't mean a quick glossing which ignores the incredible evidence for God's complete sovereignty, but a specific address to our arguments.If you like I will type out both chapters and we can go through the entire thing in exposition.

 

If you would have read more of my posts, I completely understand that God chooses individuals to do his work, people such as Paul and such as Jeremiah.

[/quote]I would love to hear your interpretation of Romans 8 & 9.I don't mean a quick glossing which ignores the incredible evidence for God's complete sovereignty, but a specific address to our arguments.If you like I will type out both chapters and we can go through the entire thing in exposition.[/QB][/QUOTE]

If you place Romans 8 through Romans 11, you'll see that God's completely sovereignty here speaks of the groups of people that were elected as special to God - first the Hebrews, and now after Christ, the Church. If you want to go point by point, that's fine, but let's do all the way through 10 and 11 as well.

 

Both of these men were unsaved when they were called. So it is obvious that God called them to salvation first and then to service.

 

Both of these men were unsaved when they were called. So it is obvious that God called them to salvation first and then to service.</font>[/QUOTE]Methinks Scott is in much denial.

 

Both of these men were unsaved when they were called. So it is obvious that God called them to salvation first and then to service.</font>[/QUOTE]God called Jeremiah in the womb, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." God says about Paul, "Go! This man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before the Gentiles and their kings and before the people of Israel." God knew their individual choice would be "yes." God didn't force their salvation, as he doesn't force anyone's. (I'm not an open theist, who would say that God is taking a "guess.")

 

How is it that Paul had a 'choice' if the outcome was already determined?

 

How is it that Paul had a 'choice' if the outcome was already determined?</font>[/QUOTE]Because the choice was determined by Paul, not God. God just knew what Paul's free choice would be.

 

So Paul had an alternative?Could Paul have decided to deny the invitation from Christ despite God knowing that he would accept it?

 

God doesn't force anyone's salvation. Why are you bringing that up? No one here has suggested he does, to my knowledge.

Please quote only a short, relavent part of the post you are responding to. There is usually no need to quote it all.

 

That's a question for the open theists. It is because Paul was going to say yes that God gave him the mission. If he would have said no, I imagine God would have found another Pharisee would would have been willing to say "yes."

 

It is the Arminian position that unless God allows man a free choice, God "forces" his salvation on people and that God does not give a chance to those who will ultimately end up in Hell. Therefore, to Ray, myself, and other Arminian brethren on the board, any position that states that God does not give a free choice to all men is forcing them to choose what He wants them to, making God a tyrant. We use passages such as "God has created some for destruction," which taken a way that we do not, leads one to conclude in double predestination. In other words, to the Arminian, there is no such thing as single predestination. Reading individuals as being predetermined to heaven logically concludes others being predestined to Hell.

This may not be expressly spoken by Calvinists, but it is the verbage of Arminians.

 

That's a question for the open theists. It is because Paul was going to say yes that God gave him the mission. If he would have said no, I imagine God would have found another Pharisee would would have been willing to say "yes."</font>[/QUOTE]No, that was a question for you.Whether you correctly understand that Paul (like all of God's elect) was chosen by God according to His will from the foundation of the world, or you incorrectly believe that God simply foreknew that Paul would 'choose' Him, the only possible conclusion is that Paul did not have a choice or free will.Free will is contingent upon the ability to choose an alternative.

Foreknowledge and predestination cannot be separated.

 

Can you show logically or Biblically that this is true, or are we just supposed to take your word for it. If God is, as we say, outside the realm of time, then Paul was capable of any alternative, saying 'yes,' 'no,' 'maybe,' and so on.

Foreknowledge doesn't mean that predestination of God.