Gambling

Helen I never said gambling was right. I just gave some illustrations of gambling in California with the Casinos that are popping up like wildfire here. Gambling is always wrong no matter what type it is!... Brother Glen

 

< I disagree with you, Jonathan. Here is the Scripture:
You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Which person, winning money, shares it with his neighbors? >

I would like to ask how you view going for an interiview for a great job. You are one candidate whose success depends on all other candidates losing. And as for sharing with your neighbors, how much do you give your neighbors each month, and what are the parameters of your neighbors?

And one more question: What about investing in light of 'gambling?' If you gain on your investments, then others lose. Somewhere the money you gain came from persons who did not give it up willingly.

 

Ah, but Pete--the word "pornography" isn't used there, and "pornography" isn't expressly forbidden there, now is it?

However, the principle behind pornography--lust--is.

Understand my point?

Christian Cynic, I don't see the analogy of applying for a job as relating to gambling. The people applying for the job are willing to give of themselves and their talents in return for making their employer more successful, and therefore able to pay them for their efforts and help them become successful. The employer, like the parable about the vineyard owner, will hire as many as he can--but reality dictates that he cannot hire them all.

In lotto or bingo, people are hoping for the greatest return without giving of themselves or of their talents, and without any intent of making the person who pays them a success. Instead, the person takes their money and becomes a success without any real return to the individual or real regard for their well-being.

The job interview analogy doesn't apply.

 

It most definitely does apply, bud. Many people want such a job, which is an objective of great value, and this means you want other candidates to be refused such a valuable objective; as in playing a lottery or a slot, you want to achieve the objective [big monehy] and other players to be refused the objective.

And you did not touch the issue of investing as gambling, so I assume you have no disagreement.

 

Yea, but, while I have linked lust to pornography I don't think it is nessisary that lottery must be linked with greed. I agree that most people who play the lottery shouldn't and need to use the money elsewhere. Anyone who plays it outside of entertainment value is not very diserning.

But. . .

I work for a living and want money so I can feed my family and such. And if you asked me, "hey pete, do you want to work less and get paid more?" I would answer without hesitating, "yes!".

This to say, I agree with you 99.99% of the time on the issue of gambling, even though I would argue it more on the grounds of social injustice to people already poor and not so much on something for nothing. I certainly recieved something for nothing, salvation, and I could not have nor would want it any other way!

 

CC - When a person applies for a job, he or she is asking the potential employer to make a choice based on qualifications and personality and experience. Gambling has nothing to do with any of that. With a job you work for what you get. Sometimes you work very hard for not too much.

Gambling is just that…. Gambling.

When a lot of people are applying for the same position, then the employer has some tough choices, but nevertheless, luck is not a factor. The employer has choices. Those who do not get the job have not lost money on the deal. There are other jobs they can apply for, even if they are not getting paid in the meantime. Equating the job market with gambling is really pushing the envelope here!

What do we give to our neighbors? Whatever we see they need which is in our power to do. Today I was in Payless for some hose connectors and packaging tape. I saw one of the girls at the checkout counter (an employee, not a customer) and I knew from a conversation we had last week that her husband left her three weeks ago and she was still shaking from the shock and pain of it. I've been there done that. So I picked up a box of chocolates, the little book "God Always Has a Plan B" (which is much better than the title) and a little nodding-head figure of a girl with the phrase on the stand "You Go, Girl!" I paid for them at another checkout counter, put them in a present-bag, and gave them to her as I walked out the store.

I bought more for her than I did for myself financially. OK?

Then I went to the grocery store and managed to keep the food bill down by more than I had spent on her so (from our regular weekly shopping), so I knew I hadn't messed up the budget.

And that's the way we live. And she is a neighbor even though I don't know her name or where she lives.

As far as investments go, I was given some stocks by my mother. I have not bought any on my own. I don't have the money! We totally trust the Lord to provide us with our daily bread and we haven't starved yet…

And since we basically live on donations from others and my husband's and my honorariums from speaking and such, I'm afraid that the money we get is exactly what people DO want to give us!

One more word about investing, however. When you invest in a company, you are giving the company your money to work with. You become part owner of that company. They will try as hard as they can to do well, and if they do, then you will get some return on your investment. If not, you all lose. This is capitalism. It is a pretty big stretch to call it gambling as we are discussing gambling on this thread!

 

Certainly the Bible does not address gambling directly but since we are supposed to be Christians (Christ-like) we should live everyday striving to live a more righteous life than the day before. This means studying the Word of God, amoungst other things. If you study Luke 19:13-27 you will see that one thing Jesus teaches here is that we are supposed to invest, we are to try to improve on our holdings. This is in direct correlation with stewardship. Everything that we have belongs to God, we are only the stewards. When you gamble away your money you are taking what is God's in the first place and throwing it to the wind, hoping for a return. This is money that could be used for the work of the LORD, missionaries would love to have the amount of money that is spent in gambling halls. And when a person does not support a missionary, they miss out on the blessings and the heavenly rewards of the fruit of that work. It's all too easy to justify gambling, but when held up next to the Word of God, it's wrong, no matter how you look at it. As far as spending money on the family, buying tickets to concerts, etc. that's not even in the same category. The LORD teaches that he wants us to be happy and lead fruitful lives. Not sit around like knots on a log. Unless those concert tickets are for a rock and roll concert, but then, that's for another discussion board. )

 

Jonathan,

Perhaps I miscommunicated. Gambling is an attempt to gain resources by shortcircuiting the biblical manner of work, industry, and initiative. It is the soul of the diligent who is made fat. $20-50 dollars for entertainment can certainly be spent in a more wholesome atmosphere than a casino. It is an issue of what's appropriate for a believer to be doing with his money. And as for family entertainment, I am not aware of any casinos that admit families. The kids generally have to stay outside.

As for intent vs. activity, a bad use of money is a bad use of money. There are speculators in the stock market who are bad stewards and there may well be people who casino gamble or buy lottery tickets who are good stewards. However, it is unlikely that one given to lottery tickets and casino gambling will be a very good steward of their money. If they were, they would understand that it is dollar thrown down the drain.

I can't find it anywhere in my logic. But then I have a decision making process by which these choices are made so it really isn't an issue for me.

 

I am comfortable (and convinced) that to gamble would be sin for you. And I would have to agree that it would be sin for me. But neither of us can argue that gambling is sin period. We can try but we're not going to get much support from Scripture.

Very good point.

 

The Bible doesn't deal with pornography. But it does deal with everything surrounding pornography (with the possible expection of the general mechanics of publishing and distributing printed/electronic media). There is no credible argument that one can be involved in pornography without also being involved in sin. This is a credible argument that one can gamble without being involved in sin (I've made that argument already on this forum).

O.K. so now you need to show the equivalency. I've given specific examples of how an individual could participate in a gambling exercize and not sin. Can you give me an example of how an individual can be involved in pornography and not also be involved in sin?

And so you draw the link that "casting lots" equates to sin because those who were directly involved in the crucifixion were casting lots? BTW, didn't God also command the "casting of lots" in other Scriptures? Is it your contention that God was commanding that the Israelites sin?

 

My point is that there are those who participate in gambling for no other reason than for entertainment purpose and have no expectation of return (other than the entertainment). If this is sinful than one must condemn all funds spent strictly for entertainment.

Now we are going to discuss where one should or should not spend entertainment dollars? If so, we are in the realm of preference, not doctrine. BTW, one can also gamble by playing "penny ante" poker at one's home.

I agree that a believer must be very careful how he/she spends money. But the stewardship argument usually degrades along the lines of preference as well. If dropping $20-$50 in an entertainment excersize is sinful then there is way more than gambling to discuss. If you have any recorded music (4+ albums or CDs), a purchased television, have gone to 6+ movies, etc..., then you are in the same category as someone who has spent the same money in gambling for entertainment.

BTW, A family may or may not have children.

I'll take your use of "unlikely" as recognition that you have not established a blanket rule. I agree that it is unlikely. But this means that I do not discount the possibility that there are those who would be good stewards of their money.

I can't find it anywhere in my logic. But then I have a decision making process by which these choices are made so it really isn't an issue for me.</font>[/QUOTE]

[ May 14, 2002, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: Jonathan ]

 

The whole principle of Christian liberty in 1 Cor 8 and Rom 14 is that some things might not be a sin but if they cause one to stumble, then they would be a sin. I am not saying that gambling fits this description. I am saying that such a distinction exists.

 

Yes. On at least two occasions the Apostle wrote concerning this:

Romans 14:14-23. Paul lays out his case concerning the eating of formerly unclean meat and then writes this in verse 23 "But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because [his eating is] not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin."

The other passage of which I am aware is found in 1 Corinthians 8:1-7 with Paul closing the deal in verse 7.

 

Wow, this board is amazing and has been a blessing to me ever since I have arrived on here not too long ago. Every time I am struggling with a topic in terms of the Bible, I see the topic appear on this board. First, it was alcohol debate, the tithing issue, and now this gambling issue I am trying to get a grip on. I am in the AF stationed in Hawaii and recently joined an IFB church after neglecting church for nearly 15 years. I was raised in a SBC and was baptized at the young age of 10. I love this new IFB church as they are loving, they challenge you to read the Bible (KJV, another topic), memorize scripture, etc. But I was raised and always felt that the occasional one glass of wine, the fun filled day at the horse track or casino was not a sin unless you abused it and made it an addiction. I strictly look at it as a day of entertainment and what I lost I lost. I always set a limit on my losses as well. So, I love my new IFB church but still struggle a bit when the pastor states that HE THINKS (he never judges us, that is between God and us, but he does state his opinions and I think he should btw) drinking even one drink is wrong as is gambling one bet or one cent. I admire and love reading the thoughts of Helen, Jonathan, Don, CC, but maybe I have just not grown spiritually enough yet as I am still just sitting on the fence on most of these topics. It is kind of ironic that I am going TDY to Las Vegas in July for a week (Hotel right on the strip) where I am to attend a business workshop seminar. I will be in the heart of sin city for the first time since joining the IFB and since I have my life back on the right track. Since I sit on the fence on this topic, I do not know what I will do while I am there. I enjoy the lights, atmosphere, and even a pull of the slots once in a while and I enjoy playing a hand of poker too. Am I supposed to sit in my room the entire time and be bored stiff? I will continue to study the scripture and pray, but I don’t know how long it will take me to get off the fence on this topic as well as other controversial ones. By the way, I have always dreamed very vividly that I would win the lottery or win big in some other way of gambling some day. If I was to win $20 Million dollars, I would want to give $2M back to my IFB church, do you think they would say no to $2M based on their beliefs? Just a thought………sorry for babbling so long.

AF Guy

 

Hey AF Guy (from an ex-Marine guy who also attended the AF Academy until a blown knee got me released...)!

I love your honesty. I would suggest that, in keeping with Scripture, if you are concerned that either gambling or drinking the occasional glass of wine would cause you to sin, just don't do it.

Besides, there is a truckload of stuff in the LV area that would interest you and would not fall into any sin category (unless, of course, you think that any money spent on entertainment pursuits is sinful). Go see that big dam. Check out the old Nuke test sites. I understand that there are some way cool amusement parks along the Strip.

And hey, you might find some pretty solid Baptist churches in America's fastest growing city.

Why don't you give us an update when you return to paradise?

 

Verses concerning Pornography:
(Psa 101:3 KJV) I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes: I hate the work of them that turn aside; it shall not cleave to me.

Mat.5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
---Almost any verse dealing with lust is dealing with pornography. The sin originates with the heart or the mind.

Verses concerning Gambling:
1Cor.6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
---Gambling is addictive. Ever since casinos were brought into our part of the country many have lost their livelihoods, ended up with broken homes, and are under going treatment similar to AAA except for gamblers. It is not just entertainment.

2Thes.3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
---Gambling is a supposed short cut to great gain. Instead of working the gambler thinks he will gain money the easy way. Most often it ends in tragedy and poverty instead.

Mat.6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
---Gambling is a waste of money. Lay your treasure up in heaven. Spend your money for eternity. Give to missions with that extra cash instead.
DHK

 

I agree that gambling can be addictive. I also agree that people have used gambling to destroy lives. What you have not shown is that gambling cannot be simply entertainment or that all gambling leads to addiction.

If the one gambling is doing so in order to gain unearned funds, I would agree. However there are many examples of folks gambling for other reasons.

This verse, in the way that you are using it, is also a condemnation of investing in high risk, high growth mutual funds. I'm not convinced that is what our Lord had in mind here.

 

Ya! How sick I am of Barona commercials (Kenny Rogers is getting on my nerves), or Viejas advertisements at Qualcomm stadium! Here in Fallbrook, we get done in with all of the casino commercials from Pala and surrounding areas. Look at those commercials, they specifically "prey" on the "elderly", it is sickening...

 

1Cor.10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.
Rom.14:5b Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom.14:23b for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
---Do everything to the glory of God. If you have any doubts whatsoever, don't. Could you picture Jesus at a casino?
DHK