Who are the Tribulation Saints?

I don't believe anyone loses their chance after the rapture, only that it is harder. Remember, the Jews can be saved now as well. If that were the case, all Jews that are not raptured would've lost their chance with the rest of the world.

God will indeed be working through Israel again, though.

The Rapture is only for the church, (saved), but everyone has a chance to accept or reject Christ until they die.

JMHO

 

I believe the same as Joy does. The tribulation is mainly for Israel, but all can be saved, if they endure to the end. To the death.

 

To what verse are you referring concerning tribulation saints? The one that comes to mind to me is Revelation 7:14. That group of tribulation saints are the saints of all ages, because they come out of "all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" (7:9). That certainly cannot be made to apply to Jews only, regardless of whatever eschatological system you employ - from dispensational premillennial to amillennial.

 

One thing (of many) I have never understood about the pretrib rapture view.

Supposedly God will not allow the church to go through tribulation, and will rapture them before it begins, it is said. This leaves unbelieving Jews and Gentiles here on earth to deal with the tribulation. However, it is also said that Jews and Gentiles will come to Christ during the tribulation. So if we define church as the body of Christ made up of believers, then these tribulation believers are now the church on earth, and have not been raptured and are amid the tribulation. So the rapture does not really solve the problem it hopes to fix, i,e, the church avoiding the tribulation. Is that clear?

Chris

 

I see what you are saying Chris, but the way I see it is this:
The Jews rejected Jesus as the Christ, God then went to the Gentiles mainly according to Hebrews 11, to provoke the Jews to jealousy, a godly jealousy that is. Once this dispensation is over and the rapture of the church takes place, God will do as many scriptures point to, and that is redeem His people (Israel), Not for thier sake but for His name's sake. As ezekiel was given the vision of the valley of dry bones, and God asked him if these bones could live, well you know the story. Many other OT and NT scriptures seem to imply that God will give Israel a chance for redemtion during the tribulation. But as far as the others of every kindred and nation, though the tribulation is mainly for Israel, and of course God pouring His wrath out on the wicked, which we are not the children of wrath, Others too can be saved if they endure unto the end and are martyred for Christ's name sake and for the testimony which they hold. They are not part of the church or the brethren until they die. Those that will not go that far and will receive the mark of the beast will be part of the children of wrath.

This is a short version of why I believe this way. Maybe when I get a little time I will elaborate on the scriptures which lead me toward this view.

 

As a pre-tribber, I believe that the church age is completed at the rapture, so anyone who comes to Christ during the church is not part of the NT church. They are just considered saints, and mostly martyrs at that.

Revelation 1-5 is all about the church. It abruptly ends and from 6-19, you find no mention of it. You do find mention of the remnant or Israel. II Thes. 2 reminds us not to fear the Day of the Lord, which is always a reference to judgement during the tribulation. The reason for this is that the man of sin or the anti-christ will be revealed first. There won't be any guessing at who he might be-he will be revealed, which indicates that they will know who he is. Most will be deceived by his message, though.

IThes 5:9...we are not appointed unto wrath.

 

The last week of Daniel's prophecy is still to come for the Jewish people. This will be after the Rapture, when the Holy Spirit is removed (and thus the true Christians as well) and the antichrist revealed to the world.

This last week (seven years) of Tribulation will find a number of Jewish people finally turning to Jesus Christ in recognition of fulfilled prophecies and the call of God Himself in their lives. While 144,000 of these are preserved miraculously, according to Revelation, the rest will be martyred by the world leader mid-tribulation when they refuse to take the sign of the beast.

The last three and a half years of the Tribulation are the pouring out of the bowls of God's wrath, according, again, to Revelation. And no, we are not appointed to that wrath nor is any believer, the final believing Jews included. We will all be gone by that time.

Thus, the only saints during the Tribulation will be

1. The Two Witnesses (and this may be figurative if there is a meaning here regarding the Law and the Prophets, or they could be real, as representatives of the Law and the Prophets. Some consider them to be the only two recorded who have not yet died: Enoch and Elijah. This one we will probably have to wait to find out...)

2. The 144,000 who are hidden by the Lord (at Petra?)

3. Jewish believers who acknowledge Christ is the Messiah and God, trusting Him for their salvation during the Tribulation.


The key is in the book of Daniel. There is one week left to go for the Jewish people. It has been held off by the advent of the Christian Church, as we are those from other folds Christ spoke of. But, as God says in Isaiah, He will never forget His people and will restore them. There will come a time when they will look on Him they have pierced and mourn. And some will understand. Some will finally turn to their God and ours for real.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joy:

IThes 5:9...we are not appointed unto wrath.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Joy:

There's a big difference between not being under God's wrath, but nevertheless being amid tribulation.

And its interesting how Jesus told the believers to look for and expect tribulation, and expect His return to be after the tribulation.

Matthew 24:15-30 (ESV)
"So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand), [16] then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. [17] Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, [18] and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. [19] And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! [20] Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath.
[21] For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. [22] And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. [23] Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There he is!' do not believe it. [24] For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. [25] See, I have told you beforehand. [26] So, if they say to you, 'Look, he is in the wilderness,' do not go out. If they say, 'Look, he is in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. [27] For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. [28] Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
[29] "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [30] Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mark 13:19-29 (ESV)
For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be. [20] And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days. [21] And then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'Look, there he is!' do not believe it. [22] False christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect. [23] But be on guard; I have told you all things beforehand. [24] "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, [25] and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. [26] And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. [27] And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven. [28] "From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. [29] So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that he is near, at the very gates.

And apparently, John viewed himself and the church already in the tribulation:

Rev. 1:9 (ESV)
I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

 

Chris, Though yes we do see tribulations, we will not see the great tribulation as what Jesus refers to in Matt. 24. Though we will see the foreshadows of this. Ch. 24 of Matt. is to the Jews, though also a warning to us as well, because we will see the foreshadows of this. His second return will not happen until after the tribulation, though the rapture is different than the second coming because He doesn't set His feet on this earth rather we go up in the clouds with Him. Also notice at His second coming He is coming back with ten thousand of His saints, ten tousand being an innumberable number. We will be with Him when He returns for the second coming.

 

Hi Chris,

I knew it was just a matter of time until you and I took this up again! Here’s a passage that is troubling for post-tribbers:

John 14:2-3 (ESV)
2 In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

His departure would be for their advantage since He was going away to prepare a heavenly home for them and will return to take them so that they may be with Him. This is one of the passages that refers to the rapture of the saints at the end of the age when Christ returns. The features in this description do not describe Christ coming to earth with His saints to establish His kingdom (Rev. 19:11–15), but taking believers from earth to live in heaven. Since no judgment on the unsaved is described here, this is not the event of His return in glory and power to destroy the wicked (cf. Matt. 13:36–43; 47–50). Rather, this describes His coming to gather His own who are alive and raise the bodies of those who have died to take them all to heaven. This rapture event is also described in 1 Cor. 15:51–54; 1 Thess. 4:13–18. After being raptured, the church will celebrate the marriage supper (Rev. 19:7–10), be rewarded (1 Cor. 3:10–15; 4:5; 2 Cor. 5:9, 10), and later return to earth with Christ when He comes again to set up His kingdom (Rev. 19:11–20:6). - MacArthur, J. (1997, c1997). The MacArthur Study Bible (Electronic ed.) (Jn 14:2). Nashville, TN: Word Pub.

I will come back refers here, not to the Resurrection or to a believer’s death, but to the Rapture of the church when Christ will return for His sheep (cf. 1 Thes. 4:13-18) and they will be with Him (cf. John 17:24). Jesus said nothing about the nature of the place where He was going. It is sufficient that believers will be with the Father and Jesus (cf. 2 Cor. 5:8; Phil. 1:23; 1 Thes. 4:17). - Walvoord, J. F. (1983-c1985). The Bible knowledge commentary : An exposition of the scriptures (Jn 14:3). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.

In the post-trib view, Jesus comes at the end of the tribulation, then we have the millennial kingdom of a thousand years (unless you're also amil, which doesn't change the next assumption), then heaven and earth are destroyed and a "new heaven and earth" are created (Rev 21). Saints never got to go with Jesus and enjoy these "rooms" He prepared for us and said He'd take us to!

[ October 19, 2001: Message edited by: John Wells ]

 

Dr. Bob, two questions:

1. What did you do with the saints from the thief on the cross to Stephen?
2. Is your great multitude of gentile believers from the 7 year tribulation based on Revelation Ch. 7 - the innumberable host out of all nations, ethnicities, and languages?

 

Hi John:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Wells:
Hi Chris,

I knew it was just a matter of time until you and I took this up again! Here’s a passage that is troubling for post-tribbers:

John 14:2-3 (ESV)
2 In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's not really a problem for non-rapturists, unless one envisions heaven "up there". But heaven is not a geographical location, but rather where God is. Wherever the King is, teh kingdom is there as well:

Matthew 12:28 (ESV)
But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Luke 9:62 (ESV)
Jesus said to him, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God."

Luke 10:9 (ESV)
Heal the sick in it and say to them, 'The kingdom of God has come near to you.'

Luke 10:11 (ESV)
'Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet we wipe off against you. Nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near.'

Luke 11:20 (ESV)
But if it is by the finger of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Luke 17:20-21 (ESV)
Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, "The kingdom of God is not coming with signs to be observed, [21] nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'There!' for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you."

The Kingdom of God was initiated at Christ's advent, but will not be finalized until He returns to establish it on earth forever.

Luke 21:31 (ESV)
So also, when you see these things taking place, you know that the kingdom of God is near.

Luke 22:16 (ESV)
For I tell you I will not eat it until it is fulfilled in the kingdom of God."

Luke 22:18 (ESV)
For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."

Acts 14:22 (ESV)
strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.

Rev. 12:10 (ESV)
And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.

These following verses present a problem for rapturists:

John 6:39-40 (ESV)
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. [40] For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:44 (ESV)
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 6:54 (ESV)
Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

If the rapture is biblical, its curious that Jesus never spoke of it, only of His return on the last day

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>His departure would be for their advantage since He was going away to prepare a heavenly home for them and will return to take them so that they may be with Him. This is one of the passages that refers to the rapture of the saints at the end of the age when Christ returns.

 

Chris said, “That's not really a problem for non-rapturists, unless one envisions heaven "up there". But heaven is not a geographical location, but rather where God is. Wherever the King is, teh kingdom is there as well:”

I agree that the kingdom of God is here on earth, secretly in the heart and soul of believers. But there is a heaven where Paul (absent from the body, present with the Lord), the thief on the cross, and all dead saints’ souls are right now. I don’t say it’s up, but it’s definitely a place somewhere beyond the physical realm.

The seventieth week of Daniel—the Tribulation—is an outpouring of the wrath of God throughout the seven years (Rev. 6:16–17; 11:18; 14:19; 15:1; 16:1, 19); it is described as God’s judgment ( Rev. 14:7; 15:4; 16:5–7; 19:2) and God’s punishment (Isa. 24:21–22). (2) The scope of the Tribulation. The whole earth will be involved (Isa. 24:1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 21; 34:2). It also involves God’s chastisement of Israel (Jer. 30:7; Dan. 9:24). If this is the nature and scope of the Tribulation, it is inconceivable that the church will be on earth to experience the wrath of God. (3) The purposes of the Tribulation. The divine intentions of the Tribulation will be to judge people living on earth (Rev. 6:10; 11:10; 13:8, 12, 14; 14:6; 17:8) and to prepare Israel for her King (Ezek. 36:18–32; Mal. 4:5–6). Neither of these pertain to the church. (4) The unity of the Tribulation. The Tribulation is the seventieth week of Daniel; Daniel 9:24 makes it clear that it has reference to Israel. (5) The exemption of the Tribulation. The church is the bride of Christ, the object of Christ’s love, not His wrath (Eph. 5:25). It would be a contradiction of the very relationship of Christ and the church for the church to go through the punishments of the Tribulation. Specific statements affirming the church will be kept from the Tribulation (cf. Rom. 5:9;81 1 Thess. 5:9; 2 Thess. 2:13; Rev. 3:10).82 (6) The sequel of the Tribulation. The signs of Matthew 24 (and numerous other passages) were given to Israel concerning the second coming of Christ; no signs, however, were given to the church to anticipate the rapture (which means it will come suddenly, as pretribulationists have affirmed). “The church was told to live in the light of the imminent coming of the Lord to translate them in His presence (John 14:2–3; Acts 1:11; 1 Cor. 15:51–52; Phil. 3:20; Col. 3:4; 1 Thess. 1:10; 1 Tim. 6:14; James 5:8; 2 Pet. 3:3–4).”83
The tribulation. The Tribulation is the seventieth week of Daniel (Dan. 9:27), a week according to the prophet’s terminology equaling seven years. It is the last of a seventy-week (490 years) prophecy regarding Israel’s future (Dan. 9:24–27), which began in 444 B.C. Sixty-nine weeks (483 years) concluded with the death of Christ (Dan. 9:26). There is a gap between the sixty-ninth week (A.D. 33) and the seventieth week (the future Tribulation period).84 As the seventieth week of Daniel, the Tribulation has particular reference to Israel (not the church), because Daniel was told, “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people” (Dan. 9:24). When Jesus detailed the events of the Tribulation in Matthew 24–25, He explained to the disciples what would happen to the nation Israel, indicating the Tribulation has reference to Israel.
The Tribulation will begin with the signing of the covenant by the beast, who promises to protect Israel (Dan. 9:27). Technically, the rapture does not begin the Tribulation; there may be a brief period of time between the rapture of the church and the signing of the covenant. The Tribulation will involve the judgment of God upon an unbelieving world, as detailed in Revelation 6–19. The consecutive series of seals, trumpets, and bowl judgments of Revelation detail God’s judgment upon unbelievers, climaxing in the triumphant return of Christ to earth with His bride, the church (Rev. 19:11–21).
A prophetic year was regarded as 360 days, with emphasis on the last half of the Tribulation period, called the Great Tribulation (Matt. 24:21) and referred to as 42 months (Rev. 11:2) or 1,260 days (Rev. 11:3).
The nature and purpose of the Tribulation is important in resolving the issue of the church’s participation in it. (1) Nature of the Tribulation. It has already been shown that the Tribulation is a time of the outpouring of the wrath of God (1 Thess. 1:10; Rev. 6:16, 17; 11:18; 14:19; 15:1; 16:1, 19); it is a time of punishment (Isa. 24:20–21); a time of trouble (Jer. 30:7; Dan. 12:1); a time of great destruction (Joel 1:15; 1 Thess. 5:3); a time of desolation (Zeph. 1:14, 15); a time of judgment (Rev. 14:7; 16:5; 19:2). If the church is the object of Christ’s love, how can it be present during the Tribulation? - Enns, P. P. (1997, c1989). The Moody handbook of theology. Chicago, Ill.: Moody Press.

These following verses present a problem for rapturists:
John 6:39-40 (ESV)
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. [40] For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:44 (ESV) (snip)

NT saints are raptured, i.e. “the church.” OT and Tribulation saints are “raised up on the last day.”

Nope - Jesus brings heaven, and all the saints, down to earth!
Rev. 3:10-13 (ESV)
Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth. (snip)

Precisely! He will keep those to whom this message was spoken to, the church, the bride of Christ, from “the hour of trial . . . on the whole world.” – clearly describing the Great Tribulation. There are tribulations that believers suffer daily, but this world-wide tribulation points to the Great Tribulation that Jesus promised to “keep us from.”

God bless!

 

SEVENTIETH week, not 'seventh' week. I kept looking at that when I was so tired and something 'felt' wrong and I just posted it anyway. Thank you for setting THAT record straight, John!

Regarding, for Chris, the kingdom of heaven being where God is, and in the hearts of men -- John answered you very well, but there is more I would like to add.

In 2 Thess. 2 we are told that 'one' is holding back the 'secret power of lawlessness' which is part and parcel of the reign of the antichrist. The only 'one' who can hold back lawlessness is God. BUT God the Father is in heaven. God the Son is seated at His right hand and will remain there until it is time for Him to return. So that means the job of restraint is delegated to the Holy Spirit, who resides in the hearts of born again believers (Romans 8:8).

Now go to Hebrews 13:5, which quotes Deuteronomy 31:6, where God says, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you."

If the Holy Spirit, the one restraining evil, is taken out of the way, what happens to Christians? Are they left without Him? That would be God breaking His promise to all of us. Therefore, if we are not to be left as orphans (John 14:18), we go when the Holy Spirit goes. For we ARE the Temple of the Lord now, here on earth. It is we who will be removed before the antichrist is revealed. It is through us that the Holy Spirit is holding back evil.

Our rapture is not just promised, but absolutely necessary for the progression of events marked by the Tribulation.

My one point of disagreement with some of the other pre-Trib posts here is that I do not think there will be new Gentile believers during the Tribulation. I would like to think so, and I don't mind at all being wrong, but that last week is for the Jewish people so that those who will, will turn to the Lord.

 

rl vaughn previously quoted:
To what verse are you referring concerning tribulation saints? The one that comes to mind to me is Revelation 7:14. That group of tribulation saints are the saints of all ages, because they come out of "all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues" (7:9).

I tend to agree with his interpretation and would like to add one that as far as I know hasn't been mentioned. That is the preterist view that believes it all happened in the first century church.

The way I see it there are four interpretations: Historical, Preterist, Futurist and Spiritual. The way you understand them is up to the Lord and you, but I do know this someone has been making a lot of dough off the "FEAR" of Gods' children.

What comes to pass only the Lord knows, but come what may "The Battle Belongs To The Lord."... Brother Glen

[ October 20, 2001: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

Hi all this has been a great discussion so far and I have held off from putting in my 2 cents- cause i don't have two cents. I don't understand alot about the end times and was wondering if anyone had a good recommendation on a book that walks through revelations/ the end time prophecies?

Thanks!

UNP, Adam