Wine in the Bible

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike Walker:
Are fat people sinful???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why is that everytime wine comes up people feel it necessary to throw stones at overweight people?

Is it if you can't justify your ideas by scripture that you say well, see they sin so I can too? Not that the overindulgence of food is mentioned anywhere near as much as wine in excess! Oh, is it mentioned specifically at all? Wine sure is. I just tire of that type of argument. Well others sin in another way so my way must be "acceptable" too. If an overweight person overeats and that is sin, ok that is sin. But that doesn't justify your sin.

As for the issue at hand, I am still not totally convicted on this either way. I do know that drinking in excess is sin. Drinking in moderation, I don't really see a problem with. Personally I do not drink because I don't want my non-christian friends to think that drinking in excess would also be acceptable. I don't want to be a stumbling block to anyone.

Chris mentioned Paul's words in 1 Corinthians. Let me add this. Paul was talking about eating meat sacrificed to idols. I use his reasoning in v13 to lead me in how I treat wine and anything that may cause a brother to stumble.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1 Corinthians 8:9
Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak.
10
For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple, won't he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols?
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So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge.
12
When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ.
13
Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, that is how I decide to do things.

~Lorelei

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lorelei:


Again, that is how I decide to do things.

~Lorelei<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen, Lorelei

 

Quote by Chris
Wine is approved of in the NT; drugs, marijuana and whiskey are not. Wine has a purpose according to Scripture; the only purpose drugs have is removal from reality. No relationship at all.

Sorry Chris I don’t agree. I don’t see what purpose wine could have in the Scripture? It too can remove from reality and destroy homes along with lives and that was my point with those I mentioned.
There is a relationship and you made it “the only purpose drugs have is removal from reality”.

 

ddavis said:

I have looked at this in my own studies because of some arguments with other Christians that use it as an excuse to drink alcoholic drinks. They say one beer a day won’t hurt but that adds up to 365 in a year a look what that can do to our temple (body).

This is a logical fallacy, as you are confusing 365 beers consumed en masse with 365 beers consumed gradually. Drinking 365 beers all at once can do something to your body (in fact it will kill you, as a fatal dosage of ethanol is far less than that). But if 1 beer a day has no ill effects, as you acknowledge, then 365 beers consumed one beer per day over 365 days will also not harm you, by your own argument.

I think you’ll find that after fermented beverages are used there is judgment as in the case of Noah and Ham.

This is selective reasoning. I note, first, that it is Ham who was judged (for mocking his father), not Noah for being drunk. Not that I (or the Bible) approve of Noah's drunkenness, but I just mention this to point out that the judgment that was given had to do with Ham's sin (who was not drinking), not Noah's.

Second, I point out that although Job's children were drinking wine at the time they died (Job 1:18-19), Scripture does not say that their death was a judgment against them. In fact, the whole gist of the book of Job suggests exactly the opposite truth!

So two counterexamples (including your own) have disproven your assertion.

I believe Christ made and drank grape juice from the vine before it fermented

I believe that if Christ had made and drank grape juice at that wedding, then the Bible would say he made and drank grape juice. The Greek language had a word for unfermented grape juice, trux. Yet the author of the Gospel, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, used oinos, the common meaning of which is wine, not grape juice.

 

ddavis said:

So Chris, you drink? Again the ones that are in favor of drinking are the ones that want Christ in the same boat.

I most certainly want to be in the same boat with Christ. To all Christians he is the "captain of the soul," isn't he?

Luke 1;15,

John the Baptist is a special case, seemingly a Nazirite (or something like it), specially set apart for God from the womb.

Then it will be done in moderation, how about L.S.D. marijuana, whiskey.

The purpose of LSD and marijuana is precisely what the Bible forbids in the case of alcohol: intoxication. Therefore the use of those drugs is forbidden by Scripture for the same reason that drunkenness on alcohol is forbidden.

As for whiskey, the Bible is silent on distilled spirits ; the technology to create them didn't exist until the Middle Ages. But the principles regulating the use of wine would still apply to other alcoholic beverages: OK in moderation, not to the point of drunkenness.

Then what about those who are alcoholic and have fermented wine for the Lord's Table?

For their sake, use grape juice for the Lord's table, then. I would draw the line at diluting the symbolism any further, however (e.g. substituting some other fruit juice).

Hab. 2;15-16

Hab. 2:15-16 is a prophecy against Babylon, not a proscription against drinking wine per se.

However, even taken at face value, Habakkuk does not forbid drinking wine, only plying someone else with wine for the purpose of taking advantage of them.

I guess we can do anything in moderation? steal just alittle, cheat just alittle, lie just alittle?

Stealing, cheating, and lying are clear sins; by lumping drinking wine with them, you are simply begging the question (since you have not yet established that drinking wine belongs in the same category).

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Stealing, cheating, and lying are clear sins; by lumping drinking wine with them, you are simply begging the question (since you have not yet established that drinking wine belongs in the same category).
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think they do! I think it does! Ask a drunk or wino he'll tell you he only started out by having one drink!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I most certainly want to be in the same boat with Christ. To all Christians he is the "captain of the soul," isn't he? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the same boat with the God of the univese who is the captain of the soul, not in the same boat of drunks!

So I guess I reserve the right to disagree!

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ddavis:
Sorry Chris I don’t agree. I don’t see what purpose wine could have in the Scripture? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, if you don't see it as described by Jesus and Paul in the Scriptures I originally posted, there's nto much else to say.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ddavis:
In the same boat with the God of the univese who is the captain of the soul, not in the same boat of drunks! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why do you equate wine with drunkenness? Do you also demand everyone who owns and shoots a gun be considered a killer?

[ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

 

ddavis said:

I think they do! I think it does!

I'm not interested in namby-pamby postmodern opinions and "feelings." What saith the Scriptures?

Ask a drunk or wino

My rule of faith is what the Bible says, not what drunks and winos mumble at me.

My approval of wine and alcohol is based on Biblical argument. Where's yours?

In the same boat with the God of the univese who is the captain of the soul, not in the same boat of drunks!

Why do the anti-wine zealots always equate drinking with drunkenness? Especially after us Bible believers (the ones who believe all the Bible has to say about wine, not just the parts we're comfortable with) specifically condemn drunkenness?

Talk about a broken record.

[ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: Ransom ]

 

by Ransom <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Why do the anti-wine zealots always equate drinking with drunkenness? Especially after us Bible believers (the ones who believe all the Bible has to say about wine, not just the parts we're comfortable with) specifically condemn drunkenness? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why do the pro-wine zealots think that Jesus would drink something that could destory his mind and body.
Ohhh I get only those that believe in drinking wine are "Bible believers" because their's is the truth.
Sir you are not the only Bible believer you just have a different opinion than the rest of us Bible believers.
My is in Romans 12:1

By Chirs <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Why do you equate wine with drunkenness? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Chris, What is the end result of drinking? What is the purpose of drinking wine?

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ddavis:

Chris, What is the end result of drinking? What is the purpose of drinking wine?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK I hate to repeat myself but, wine is for:

Medicinal Use:

Proverbs 31:6 (ESV)
Give strong drink to the one who is perishing,
and wine to those in bitter distress;

1 Tim. 5:23 (ESV)
(No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.)

Mealtime fellowship and remembrance:

Matthew 26:27-29 (ESV)
And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, "Drink of it, all of you, [28] for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. [29] I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."

Represents celebration in the Kingdom:

Isaiah 25:6 (ESV)
On this mountain the Lord of hosts will make for all peoples
a feast of rich food, a feast of well-aged wine,
of rich food full of marrow, of aged wine well refined.

AND ...Jesus made it from water for celebration of marriage (foreshadowing his prediction of Mt 26:27-29).

So were Paul, Isaiah, and Jesus wrong for recommending wine?


[ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: Chris Temple ]

 

Sorry Chris, Jesus couldn't drink wine just because of his very nature.
I'm not making this personal, but you said you wouldn't drink because of your 13 year old daughter. Why not if you believe the Bible says it's o.k. then there shouldn't be a problem.

 

ddavis asked:

Why do the pro-wine zealots think that Jesus would drink something that could destory his mind and body.

You mean like water? Taken in sufficient quantities, it will accomplish that.

"Could destroy" doesn't mean "inevitably will destroy."

Chris, What is the end result of drinking? What is the purpose of drinking wine?

<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Satisfying the thirst (Gen. 14:18)
<LI>Celebration (Deut 14:26)
<LI>Ceremonial (Matt. 26:27)
<LI>Medicinal (1 Tim. 5:23)
<LI>Appreciation (John 2:10)
[/list]

 

ddavis said:

Sorry Chris, Jesus couldn't drink wine just because of his very nature.

I was unaware that he lacked a stomach, mouth, and liver.

I'm not making this personal, but you said you wouldn't drink because of your 13 year old daughter. Why not if you believe the Bible says it's o.k. then there shouldn't be a problem.

. . . because the Bible says to limit your freedom for the sake of others, perhaps? . . .

 

I guess we can agree to disagree!

 

"I'll just give my opinion now: I don't think 2000 years ago it was possible to keep grape juice for more than a few days. If anyone knows how please let me know. I think some people have a hard time letting go of the TRADITIONS OF MAN and accepting what may be contrary to their way of thinking. This whole idea that wine is bad is something that started in this country about 100 years ago. Are you going to throw out 2000 years of religeous history because of some ill-guided religeous fanatics?" (Mike Walker)

Your last statement or question is quite enlightening and could be answered by a little reading and studying of your own. A recommended book is "Bible Wines or The Laws of Fermentation," by William Patton. Let give quote a page from it:
Fermentation Prevented:
Professor Donovan, in his work on "Domestic Economy," mentioned three methods by which all fermentation could be prevented:
1. Grape-juice will not ferment when the air is completely excludely.
2. By boiling down the juice, or, in other words, evaporating the water, the substance becomes a syrup, which if very will not ferment.
3. If the juice be filtered and deprived of its gluten, or ferment, the production of alcohol will be impossible. (Anti-Bacchus, p.162)

Dr. Ure, the eminent chemist, says that fermentation may be tempered or stopped:
1. By those means which render the yeast inoperative, particularly by the oils that contain sulphur, as oil of mustard, as also by the sulphurous and sulphuric acids.
2. By the separation of the yeast, either by the filter or subsidence.
3. By lowering the temperature to 45 degrees. If the fermenting mass becomes clear at this temperature and be drawn off from the subsided yeast, it will not ferment again though it should be heated to the proper pitch. (Anti-Bacchus, p.225)

Baron Liebig, in his "Letters on Chemistry," says: "If a flask be filled with grape-juice and made air- tight, and then kept for a few hours in boiling water, THE WINE does not ferment."
---Bible Commentary, xxxvii. Here we have two of the preventatives, viz., the exclusion of the air, and the raising of the temperature to the boiling point.
The unalterable laws of nature, which are the laws of God, teach these stern facts:

1. That very sweet juices and thick syrups will not undergo the vinous-fermentation.
2. That the direct and inevitable fermentation of the sweet juices, in hot climates with the temperature above 75 degrees, will be the acetous (vinegary).
3. That to secure the vinous fermentation the temperature must be between 50 and 75 degrees, and that the exact proportions of sugar and gluten and water must be secured.
4. That all fermentation may be prevented by excluding the air, by boiling, by filtration, by subsidence, and by the use of sulphur.

Did The Ancients Use Methods To Preserve The Juices Sweet
Augustine Calmet, the learned author of the "Dictionary of the Bible," born 1672, says: "The ancients possessed the secret of preserving wines sweet throughout the whole year." If they were alcoholic, they would preserve themselves. The peculiarity was preserving them sweet. Chemistry tells us that the juice loses it sweetness when, by fermentation, the sugar is converted into alcohol. Preserving them sweet throughout the whole year meant preserving them unfermented.
Chemical science instructs us that by reason of the great sweetness of the juice and the heat of the climate at the vintage, the vinous fermentation would be precluded, and that, unless by some method prevented, the acetous would certainly and speedily commence. Four modes were known and practised by the ancients which modern chemical science confirms.

You should really get the book. I hope this answers your question.
DHK

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ransom:
. . . because the Bible says to limit your freedom for the sake of others, perhaps? . . .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you Ransom ... I'm tired ..

 

My opinion:

To believe that all or even most of the wine of Jesus day was non-alcoholic is naive. Some of it may have been, if it was consumed right after the squeeze. Some was boiled down into a paste with a little pulp added and then pressed into a kind of a fruit roll-up.

But the greatest use was for consumption with food as it is to this very day in the old world.

Wine is a natural medicine which aids digestion and provides nutrients, enzymes and minerals to break down fats and cholesterol in the blood. Because it (naturally fermented wine) has up to 5 percent alcohol it will be clean from most pathogens and will also kill germs and parasites from meats and other foods which humans have handled and contaminated. Mild natural wine can be safely used for relieving thirst where the water supply is questionable.
God meant it for the benefits above as well as EEK! to be enjoyed because it tastes so good.
True, our "enlightened" society doesn't have to be overly concerned about the health and sanitation problems above (until you go over seas) but the society of Jesus day did have these concerns.
Alcohol is medicinal and antiseptic for use both externally and internally.
It is a gift from God.
The abuse of or the addiction to any good thing is a sin (including ice cream).

HankD

 

Scriptures speak of wine, yes alcoholic, as being OK. Much of the well water in the Holy Land, even in biblical times was risky to drink. Even new wine contained that same risk, but fermented wine, due to the purifying effects of the alcohol, made it safe to drink. It was used like we use iced tea in the south; to quench thirst and regularly with meals. We have plenty of safe alternatives of liquid refreshments to choose from today. However, it’s real tough to argue a line of abstinence from the scriptures:

Ecclesiastes 9:7 (ESV)
Go, eat your bread in joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart, for God has already approved what you do.

Others that Chris has already posted

But, drunkenness is depicted as a sin:

Galatians 5:19-21 (ESV)
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:18 (ESV)
18 And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit,

Proverbs 23:31-35 (ESV)
Do not look at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup and goes down smoothly. In the end it bites like a serpent and stings like an adder. Your eyes will see strange things, and your heart utter perverse things. You will be like one who lies down in the midst of the sea, like one who lies on the top of a mast. “They struck me,” you will say, “but I was not hurt; they beat me, but I did not feel it. When shall I awake? I must have another drink.”

This verse not only illustrates alcohol’s lure toward destruction (starts out innocently), but reveals what advanced stages of alcoholism is like.

The question then is how many of us can handle wine properly and NEVER over-indulge (get drunk)? I found out the hard way I can’t! Our society’s view of alcohol use is quite different from that of biblical times. There is such an emphasis on it, and peer pressure (especially among teens and young adults). Alcohol is like a red-hot campfire; you play in it and it’s only a matter of time, you’re gonna get burned!

I have found, since being saved, that even the slightest effects of alcohol make me feel worse than before I consumed it. I guess that has to do with the fact that being filled with the Holy Spirit is as good as it gets!

ICE CREAM!!!!! – Hangs his head – Father I have sinned greatly against you!

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ddavis:
Why do the pro-wine zealots think that Jesus would drink something that could destory his mind and body.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is too funny! Don't you know that you can kill yourself more effectively and rapidly by ingesting half a pound of salt than drinking half a pound of wine? Are you getting ready to tell us that Jesus never ate salt either.

There's another reason God gave us wine, and I'm not afraid to say it even in the company of the anti-wine Taliban. God gave us wine for the same reason he gave us sunshine, sex, tobacco, barbecue sauce, warm sunny beaches, fishing rods, hot peppers, and comfortable shoes: PLEASURE!