Predestination/Double Predestination, No Difference.

What's this, 3 threads on this topic??

Can't we just pick one and discuss it there? it isn't like carrying on multiple conversations of the same topic is going to add clarity to the issue.

 

Okay, Chappie, I've had all I can stands, I can't stands no more. I may not be no doctor but I've done runned out of patience. I'm a-calling you out to the back alley - Scripture verses at 10 paces, tea and crumpets afterwards.



Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ October 31, 2002, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

Warm Christian greetings!

Ken Hamilton and Brother Glen are both absolutely right. Double Predestination (or the Double Decree as it is also known) is not taught in the Bible.

By rights we all deserve eternal torment in Hell; but God in His mercy chose a people before the foundation of the world (and before you get mad at me please read Ephesians 1 v 4); the rest He has passed over to allow them to follow their own course and end up in their own place.

It is extremely unfair to say, or at best to give the impression, that all Calvinists believe in the Double Decree, we do not. (Some Calvinists do, but that is their problem!).

We have been through all these arguments before. My advice to those who reject the doctrine of election is to ask themselves one simple question - why did you become a Christian when many others who heard the same message didn't?

The answer is found in John 6 v 44.

Kind regards

Robert J Hutton

 

This double predestination idea is the logical conclusion to the doctrine of predestination. But, careful thought and study will show it to be untrue for reasons stated above. (All members of Adam's race deserve condemnation).

It seems as though some fall into a category we view in scripture at Romans 1.18-32. It is nothing to them that they are bound for hell, they have no capacity to consider anything beyond satisfaction of the flesh. (vs. 32)

I have known at least one person who if I were given the choice would never receive the salvation of God. However, in the Love, Grace and Mercy of God, this individual is not even counted out until God counts him out. My prefrences are nothing to God, he is seeking his own glory and cares not for my attitudes.

This particular person has been witnessed to by many and continues to destroy families only replying he will save a front roll seat in hell for as many as do provide witness. (As I said above, I believe this individual is a part of the group describe being given over to a reprobate mind in Rom. 1.18-32). Nevertheless, this is not my choice, and is made solely on the fact of the fruit of his life.

Some are dealt with and saved others are not, this is the work of God and it is marvellous in our sight.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

[ October 31, 2002, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: Frogman ]

 

Brother Dallas,

I ran across a man on another board who was an agnostic who believed in evolution. In conversations in a forum about creation, he stated that even if there is a God, he had no interest in a worshipping and obeying a God who commanded to be worshipped and obeyed.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

Neither Esau or Jacob were always saintly. Do you remember who was the 'deceiver?' I know God does not think 'deception' is a godly virtue.

The Bible says that both men were the sons of the promise. Note: Hebrews 11:20. Also, both men were 'marked in the flesh' and made a part of the Israelite nation and children of God. Funny how Esau is listed among the saints of the Old Covenant in Hebrews 11:20. Guess the author made a mistake. {just kidding}.

 

Now we know why the author of Hebrews didn't want his name attached to the book...

 

npetrelly,

Good point! I like your sense of humor in the midst of serious discussion.

Ray

 

Only the elect are regenerated so that they can receive the love of the truth from God.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ October 31, 2002, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

This may be too deep than some are "willing" to study, but here goes.

God does in fact have a revealed will and a secret will.

Why is it said of the same man, (Pharoah), that on occassion he hardened his heart and at other times, God hardened his heart.

The fact of the matter is nothing can be proved from your position Chappie, unless we can (ctrl + x) Rom. 8.7.

We are not dealing with anything more than a total depraved humanity. God does not have a double standard, only His standard. His thoughts are not our thoughts, though our human emotions cannot comprehend his decrees, God operates not on emotion, but according to His Will.

We can never get far in a discussion when one party cannot see the total enmity against God into which we are born. We are born this, we are not made this. Adam and Eve fell, we inherited. WE were not created, but procreated (or better reproduced), this is why the fall occurred before the birth of any children, to prevent the scenarios you continually offer up.

All are sinners all are lost, those God chooses are regenerated, according to the praise of the glory of His grace.

Because all are sinners and all are lost, the will of man is not competent to choose anything but to continually add sin upon sin, upon sin, until, and unless the Holy Spirit is sent forth into the heart of any 'one' individual for the express purpose of regeneration, and this by the Will of God, not man. This is accomplished only in the time God decides, no man is capable of deciding anything, but to follow in the steps of Cain and add sin onto his already depraved nature.

It is not a paramount question you are posing, These things are settled in Heaven in the court of the Godhead, He has counselled together with Himself, and has determined the end from the beginning. To view it any other way makes Him less than Omniscient.

To make Him anything less, views Him as sitting upon His throne wringing His hands because this creature, man, (though endowed with a rational mind), continually rebels against His decrees and purposes. He is not surprised by this, it is because of this there had to be one covenanted with possessing the nature of God to take upon the body prepared for Him to be the mediator between man and God and thus reconcile man to God. This is the simple Gospel as the Bible proclaims it everywhere.

Why this cannot be viewed as simply as it is almost evades my understanding, then I look at my children. I have three, a 12, 10 and four year old. My 10 yr. old was saved this past summer, he just joined the church recently. I would have thought, ( and in fact did think my eldest would be saved first because he possesses more of a "searching" mind, more given to serious study etc. The younger spends the bulk of his time in any pursuit that offers itself for inspection, God's ways are not my ways).

We try too often to limit God to human reason and emotion. We ought not do this.

Your exposition on Romans fails to consider the fact that a relationship with God is not in view, but that a knowledge of God as creator. Also would ultimately lead one down a path to believing any and all approaches to God are suitable, (i.e. through pagan, idol worship). The bible says in vs. 32 (paraphrased: Even knowing the judgement of God against these things those who do them continue in them and not only this, but have pleasure in them that do them). This cannot be speaking of anyone who has a true relationship with God by Grace through faith in Christ. Those individuals are chastened and will repent, not able to continuously pursue such a sinful lifestyle.

[edited to correct spelling]

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

[ October 31, 2002, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: Frogman ]

 

Excellent post, Brother Dallas.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

What should I do, throw out all scripture? What is scripture?

No, God does not owe to me the salvation of my children, my wife, mother, nor anyone else. That is my point. Salvation is given at the discretion of God.

I have tried to show that regardless of the "who," and how they are emotionally tied to me, when in heaven, all I nor anyone else will be permitted to feel sorrow for the absence of any of our loved ones.

I did not mean to imply my children were or are good, on the contrary, I know they are not. My point was, according to the reasoning of man, the one child who possesses the greatest inclination to "study" and use of his reason has yet to feel the irrisistable Grace of God. That is the difference between the two children. The nature is the same.

I believe sufficient is stated in scripture to permit me to have confidence in the profession of faith, especially when one, regardless of age, is drawn to repentance without pointed coaxing.

One who believes in the will of man as the means to elevate his depraved nature, probably would not be able to comprehend that, though. This is how the doctrines you are espousing confuse so many.

As I have said before, I do not take offence from any of your postings. My own brother (according to the flesh) has called me part of the antichrist because of my beleif, when in fact it is the hope of the antichrist that men will continue to believe they are able to "better" themselves.

Did my son get saved because I have prayed for this to happen? No. He was saved because the Son of God accepted (the only accepting ever done) the Will of the Father and took my son's place, did my son receive salvation because he cried out to the Lord? or had faith? No. He received all this as a gift from God, who acted upon his will and performed the work.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

Not at this moment. Why?

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

I'll second that. (Or third it, or whatever - I haven't read all the rest to see where I am in line...)

 

Thanks Chappie for your complement and for your prayers, nevertheless, pray not for surety of my election...this is sure.. Rom. 8.16: "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God." and 2 Tim. 1.12: "For which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."

Rather pray I would stay humble to the Will of God.

Again, May God richly bless you in your life and walk with Him.

Bro. Dallas.