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Predestination/Double Predestination, No Difference.

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by ForumChaplain, Oct 31, 2002.

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  1. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain Guest

    Wow!!!!! What a post. Great job Helen...
     
    #61 ForumChaplain, Nov 4, 2002
  2. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain Guest

    If that is your perspective on scripture, why do you post around like you understand something. The heavens are higher, his thoughts are higher. Yet he reached down in scripture to us in a way that we should be able to understand. Maybe not perfectly, but better than Calvinism. If God’s word is over your head, admit it and just ask questions.

    And what are you using to understand, God logic. Some form of understanding has to be applied in order to understand. Perhaps your logic is angelic. What you accuse me of, you ought to give a try. Do you think it [possible that God knew that he was talking to human beings. Leave god’s thoughts alone, they are over even your head. Learn to prayerfully and logically discern God’s truths..

    A beautiful quote from someone who no more than a paragraph or two ago was crying about how far over their head the word of God is. On that we agree, it is way over your head. Placed out of your reach by a man that been dead for hundreds of years. What a pity. There is no irresistible grace mentioned in the bible, no matter how long you have been proclaiming it.
     
    #62 ForumChaplain, Nov 4, 2002
  3. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    Helen:

    You quoted the "bread of life" passage (Jn. 6:35-39), but you excluded part of the passage (v. 39 - "I shall lose none of all that He has given Me"), not to mention v. 44 ("No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him") and v. 65 (""This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has enabled him").
    You quoted John 1:10-12, but you forgot to include v. 13 ("children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God").

    You quoted John 3:16-18, but forgot to include vv. 19-20 ("This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come to the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed").

    You quoted from Matthew 11:28-29, but forgot to include vv. 25-27 ("I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was Your good pleasure. All things have been committed to Me by My Father. No one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him").

    Remember, context. :D

    Rev. G

    [ November 07, 2002, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: Rev. G ]
     
    #63 Rev. G, Nov 7, 2002
  4. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain Guest

    Rev G.
    I have studied every passage that you mention, none can stand the test as a foundation for salvational predestination, nor irresistible grace.

    You post a few passages that possibly could allude to such. Yet there are so many more passages that deny your intrepretation. All the monkeys in a cage do not make a gorilla.

    Where is your foundational passage. Post it, and let's talk.....

    Also, predestination through it's consequences clearly establish double predestination. Calvinists efforts to explain it away sound something like this. "I just shot him in the head with a twelve gage double barrel, i did not mean to kill him"..

    Which brings up the question, did god know what he was doing, is he/was he aware of the consequences of his actions???

    [ November 07, 2002, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
     
    #64 ForumChaplain, Nov 7, 2002
  5. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    Perhaps you should study a little more. [​IMG]
    Passages such as...?

    Your first point is...???

    Did God know what He was doing? Is He aware of the consequences of His actions? I would answer yes on both counts - God knows exactly what He is doing and He is aware of the consequences of His actions. How would you answer? Does God know all things? Is He omniscient? Is His foreknowledge "perfect"? If it is, and He knew that people would reject Him no matter what He did or what He tried, why did He let them be born? Wouldn't it be more loving to have prevented their births than to let them suffer for all eternity in Hell?

    Rev. G
     
    #65 Rev. G, Nov 7, 2002
  6. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain Guest

    My first point is a mystery to you, you are kidding; arent you???

    If your God is all that, then he was aware that when he elected some to heaven, that he effectively condemned others to hell. He concluded all in sin because of the sin of one man. They never had a chance, they were born dead and burried. Your God just wakes them up long enough to hold a kangaroo court, judge them rersponsible for being born and rush them off to hell to suffer for eternity.

    Not meant to be mean spirited. These are the consequences of salvational predestination. Calling them good because you say God did it does nothing to clean up this doctrine.. My hope is that some will see just how mean spirited this is and cease to attribute such actions to a God of love and compassion.

    The true god of heaven and earth created and allowed men to be born that they may have a chance to be with him in heaven.
    Depends on wheither they will spend their eternity in the same place as this fellow:
    Mark 14:21
    21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

    [ November 07, 2002, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
     
    #66 ForumChaplain, Nov 7, 2002
  7. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain Guest

    [ November 07, 2002, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]
     
    #67 ForumChaplain, Nov 7, 2002
  8. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    Chappie, I take it here, from your own words, that you implicitly accuse me and all other "Calvinists" of the following:

    1) being idolaters
    2) being heretics
    3) being unconverted

    Is this correct? If so, then we will go from there. If not, you need to change your wording and think more carefully about what you say.

    Rom. 5:12; Eph. 2:1-3; etc., etc.

    It is no kangaroo court. They are not responsible for their births, they are responsible for their rebellion against God. Huge difference there, Chappie. Those who refuse to trust in Christ and repent of their sins will suffer for eternity.

    Chappie, you have not given a sufficient answer to the question related to foreknowledge. You are much too bright to just give the run around.

    And, again, I take your implicit statements as serious accusations.

    Rev. G
     
    #68 Rev. G, Nov 7, 2002
  9. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain Guest

    A more deliberate choice of words is in order Rev. G. My choice of words mean nothing more than what you attribute to God; I do not see as being in harmony with the nature of God that is revealed in scripture.

     
    #69 ForumChaplain, Nov 7, 2002
  10. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Bro. Chappie,

    Your question is: Does predestination to salvation mean there is predestination to condemnation?

    Am I correct?

    I cannot speak for other Calvinists on this board or anywhere else.

    However, I believe that the election of all those who are saved also leads to the election of those who will not be.

    What choice did Judas Iscariot have?

    What choice did Pharoah have?

    In the first, Judas, could have resisted the Devil and he would have fleed from him, but his depraved will prevented this. It was predetermined he, (himself and no other) would be the one who would sop with the Lord and would betray Him. Despite being present with Christ, witnessing the same miracles and teaching etc. of Christ's ministry, he could not reconcile in his heart to believe Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah of God.

    In the second, Pharoah, could have simply let the people of Israel go, but his will continued to prevent this, even though God worked extensively in the land of Egypt to show His power and the fact that the God of the Hebrews was the only true and living God. Still, Pharoah listened to his own will and could not ever reconcile in his heart to submit to the Will of God.

    Paul answers your question in Romans Ch. 9:

    "For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and thay my name might be declared throughout all the earth."
    vs. 17

    "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" vs. 21

    "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory?" vs. 22 & 23

    These are straightforward to me. I did not write them, the Holy Spirit did. We may not fully understand the purpose of God, but we may be assured He will be glorified inspite of these truths.

    They do not remove from God any amount of justice, holiness, righteousness, nor any other of His attributes. These are characteristics we do not naturally possess, and are only able to posses them through the Will of God. We should not expect to be able to reconcile the things of our world to the eternal things of God. These things of our world being the things of human emotion, God is not reactive based upon outside forces, we are, God has purposed all things, all He has purposed shall be fulfilled.

    If God were acted upon by outside forces, what force prompted Him to create all that He has created? Before He created there was only God, there was nothing but His Will to act upon in creation.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
    #70 Frogman, Nov 8, 2002
  11. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain Guest

    Thank you for an honest, logical and realistic evaluation of the matter...
    Same choice as you and I. I do not believe that Judas was chosen to betray Christ. He was called a son of Perdition long before his act of betrayal. I believe that he was chosen because he would betray Christ. Therefore he is justly accountable for his actions.
    Same choice that you and I have. Pharaoh, being found in full blown rebellion, was raised up to be Pharaoh of Egypt so that God might demonstrate to Egypt and to Israel his power, and that he is God and that there is no other God.

    God did not make pharaoh rebellious, being found in rebellion, God hardened him in that rebellion: At a minimum until he had finished his demonstration. We have no scriptural evidence that indicates that this hardening was unto death...
    Here we have a logical contradiction. If God predetermined that Judas would betray Christ. Then there was never a point in Judas life that he could have successfully resisted. We are talking about ability.

    According to my understanding, Judas did believe that Jesus was the Messiah, he was acting according to Jewish thought at the time. That being that the messiah would destroy all their enemies and restore Israel to it’s Davidic splendor.. While under the abusive rule of Rome, Christ was preaching "love your enemies". Judas did not have to be specially prepared by God to betray Christ. There were many is Israel at that time that would have gladly done so.

    Remember the people yelling, "Crucify him, Crucify him. The whole nation was full of Judases. Even unto this day, this has not changed.

    Amen, it was Pharaoh’s will to defy God. God used Pharaoh’s evil to bring some good out of it. I love it when we do not equate Pharaohs will to the will of God.
    For what purpose did God raise up a full blown sinner to be Pharaoh; So that he could demonstrate his power. God is not the cause of his rebellion. God hardened him in it and used him..

    Beautiful example of sovereignty. The potter does have authority over the "clay". He also has authority over the soul...

    What if? What if I were a rich man? I am not. But what if I were. You could do nothing about it. That's the point being made. God is saying, I am sovereign in the lives of men. I do as I choose. He is not saying that he has adopted such as a way of life.
    Yes sir, they are straight forward, and we did not write them. But we do try to interpret them. That which we do not understand, why do we try to interpret for others. God will be glorified whether what we perceive as truth is truth or not. There I fully agree..
    If it is God's will that we posses them. In whom has God accomplished his will. In understanding theology, I often look for contradictions. If you expect others to believe or even understand you, you need to first reconcile these contradictions. Contradiction usually render ones witness ineffective. In our society, we naturally base believability and truthfulness on the number of contradictions in ones story..

    We need not reconcile the things of this world to the things of Christ. Christ has already done that. He reconciled all things unto himself.. We need only reconcile as evidence that we understand.

    I once did an extensive study on this for my church. Did you know that every emotion found in man is found in God. Is a feverent prayer isolated and outside the realm of emotion. Emotion may not be an effective way of interpreting scripture. But it is a necessary part of any relationship with God that is possible. Our God is not a computerized emotionless entity. Check him out in that respect and you will find that a full range of emotions are a part of his being.

    We really were, created in his image...
    If god answers prayer, he responds to requests that are outside of his person. Maybe he doesn’t, but he said that he does.

    Before he created us, he created the angels, before that we do not even have enough information to speculate in either direction. Was God really alone all that time? The bible does not say.

    Chappie....
     
    #71 ForumChaplain, Nov 8, 2002
  12. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    #72 Frogman, Nov 8, 2002
  13. ForumChaplain

    ForumChaplain Guest

    Here I must admit that you are correct.
    Not sure what the original creative act is. Here I have no deffinite opinion...

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas[/QB][/QUOTE]
     
    #73 ForumChaplain, Nov 8, 2002
  14. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    First, let me say, forgive me for the last post, I was attempting to respond by using the "quote" function. for the first time, I see I failed.

    next, to answer your statement quoted above:

    I simply meant, before God ever created anything He was all there was in eternity past.

    This is certain from the Hebrew word for create [bara] it involves only God as its subject. It is first found at Gen. 1.1 and expresses the creation of something out of nothing.

    All other verbs for creating allow a much broader range of meaning; they have both divine and human subjects and are used in contexts where bringing something or someone into existence is not the issue.

    Creation in its first act, precedes the existence of all the hosts of heaven, and only enjoys the action of God upon it according to His Will, affected by no outside force, save His own purposes.

    God Bless.
    Bro. Dallas
     
    #74 Frogman, Nov 8, 2002
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