No Infants in Hell

Helen,

The Bible doesn't teach that these physical bodies are raised but that our physical bodies are raised as spiritual bodies. Do you agree with this?

1 Corinthians 15:42-44(NASB)
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Ken

yes, I think I have read all of Joni's books, and loved and recommended them, too.

Click to expand...

Gasp! You recommended the works of one of "us Calvinists"?

However, as a person in science, I have to honestly laugh at the idea that THESE bodies will be resurrected....THESE physical bodies -- WHICH? This one right this second? The one I had ten years ago?

Click to expand...

Yes, I know about the change every seven years, etc., etc. Which one? The one rotting in the ground.

As a "person of science" you have to "honestly laugh at the idea that THESE bodies will be resurrected"? Other "persons of science" have to laugh at the thought of God's existence, creation, etc., etc. The question is, "What does God's Word teach?" It teaches that THESE bodies will be resurrected, and THESE bodies will be changed into new bodies. I'm not going to list the verses here because I've already done that. Perhaps the notions of Gnosticism were not incorrect, Helen. Not saying you are an "outright" Gnostic, just that there are strains of Gnosticism in your thinking.

Rev. G

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
No. Eternal destruction is in no way escaping the wrath of God. It is the wrath of God at full force.

Ken

Click to expand...

I would much rather cease to exist than forever be consigned to flames of woe.

What the bananas...I've spent the evening here anyway. This is exactly what I was NOT going to do!

OK, in response:

Ken, I'm not exactly sure how we will be raised. Like Jesus' body was? That was physical but not like we know it now. I have some crazy ideas, more like wonderings, based on some of Barry's studies in physics, but I'm more than willing to wait and see what the Bible means and what is actually going to happen and what 'physical' will mean then.... and I'm excited about it, too. Of course the Bible is right -- but that sure doesn't mean I understand what it is talking about here! I'm not rushing God, but I sure don't want any delays when He calls me home -- well, maybe enough warning to get the scrapbooks in order for the family....

Right now, the term 'spiritual body' seems a bit like a self-contradicting term in our frame of reference in this creation. But God knows what He is talking about, so I'm eager to see what it means. I'm honestly excited about heaven -- I guess that's the only way I can explain it. I don't know what's going to happen really, but I now I will be with my Lord and there will be NO MORE PAIN or sorrow or anything, and I won't be tired again -- and however He arranges my body to be for that I am willing!

Rev. G, if you take the time to check the Bible studies I do above, you will find I even link to some excellent material by Calvinists. Of course, I also linked to one extremely good exegetical piece by a Church of Christ minister regarding something a few weeks ago. Good articles are good articles. The book by Joni that I have appreciated most is "One Step Farther", and have used some of the pictures she presents in that book to encourage others a number of times. She is a most remarkable woman and sister in Christ.

You want a re-run of the body rotting in the ground? I think you will probably get better than that. We can wait and see, no?

When I said that as a person of science I had to laugh about these bodies being resurrected, it's because I know that the degeneration starts at death and sometimes before and that when buried for any length of time, you have become 'dust' or part of the ground again. At which point you are fertilizer for a maple tree, food for an earthworm, etc. When I learned about that quite a few years ago, I knew then that whatever God had planned was probably not with those particular molecules -- which 2 Peter says are all going to get burned up and destroyed anyway!

Something new is coming. It's hard being patient -- at least for me -- but I think God is going to surprise all of us; and that we will all be delighted.

And no, there is nothing gnostic in my thinking. The Bible says this creation is going to be destroyed -- who am I to argue? But I know that you and I and everyone will keep on going -- in some kind of new frame of reference. But I have a feeling, to borrow from C.S. Lewis here, that trying to figure out about that from this side is a bit like trying to get a fish to figure out what breathing air is like.

So let's just be patient. It is not gnostic to know that we continue when our bodies rot or that this creation will be destroyed, or that God will create for us something new. It's been a good world to live in, but I think it's getting old and tired now...

Travelsong -- not existing would be much nicer, I'm sure, than suffering eternally. However that is God's decision and He has chosen the latter. Therefore I strongly advise everyone to go to the Lord, repent, an submit! There is an option besides hell which is really, truly, incredibly wonderful!

Rev G.
Only spirits in Hell - I disagree. At the resurrection both the just and the unjust will be resurrected (bodily) - and the unjust will suffer torment of BOTH body AND soul in Hell.

Click to expand...

Matt 10:
28 ""Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

er...
um...

choke!..gasp!.cough!!

I um... agree with Rev G! He is right on target.

And I er.. I also agreed with Ken on his view of Rev 14:10...

I must be slipping.

In Christ,

Bob

Ken
The Bible doesn't teach that these physical bodies are raised but that our physical bodies are raised as spiritual bodies. Do you agree with this?

Click to expand...

1 Corinthians 15:42-44(NASB)
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

The problem is two fold -
#1.the 1Cor 15 context is in terms of the saints alone. So this is not a description of the resurrection of the wicked.

#2. This text does not give us the physical properties (except that the spiritual body is imperishable) of EITHER the natural or the spiritual body.

There is a "tendancy" to replace the term "natural" with "physical" and then contrast it with "spritual" in order to get to the objective of making the spiritual Body - a non-physcial "thing". But the text does not support that. We would need to inject it into the text.

Johh says that our form is like Christ's resurrected form and that we "see Him as He is" 1John 4. We know that he ate - and that he argued that this was a physical property with the disciples.

We are raised with spiritual bodies that are bodies with physical properties including the ability to eat as Christ did and as he predicted we will do when he spoke of our eating and drinking with Him in heaven at the last supper (Note that the tree of life is also said to be in that new heavens Rev 22)

THough I agree that there are no infants in hell - because they don't go to hell - they have a Savior - Jesus Christ the righteous.

Still I can return to my more comfortable stance of finding a point upon which to differ with Ken - so all is well.

In Christ,

Bob

[ November 23, 2002, 08:59 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

Rev G
In fairness, I would request that you be a bit more careful in how you state things. You said,
"We live in the bodies. But they are not us." They are not all of us, but they are us (we are body and soul). And again, one who has undergone the surgeries you have, or dismemberment (like my grand-father, war veterans, etc.), is not "less of a person." Nor is one who is aged, infirm, lame, blind, bald, etc. We are looking forward to the redemption of our bodies - when we will truly be "whole"!

Click to expand...

We "the saints" "will have exactly two bodies" according to 2Cor 5:1-11. We are separated from the first at death (the middle state of 2Cor 5 - being unclothed) and receive the 2nd at the resurrection.

1Cor 15 says that you do not reap what is sown - the body that is raised is not the body that was burned at the stake, or buried at sea or atomized in a nuclear explosion... God provides us with a new body (a physical dwelling for our spirit) that is imperishable.

So the resurrection is a physical one. But God does not have to track down each carbon atom that used to be "you" to give you a new immortal, imiperishable physical body at the resurrection of the righteous.

The wicked are never said to receive "imperishable" or "heavenly" bodies. (Though we have a lot of instruction to that effect regarding the saints). Their physical resurrection leaves them susceptible to the second death according to Rev 20:5-6. Nothing exaulted, or spiritual,j or imperishable is ever attributed to their resurrected form - NOR are they said to be raised into a body that is like Christ's body.

1Cor 15 the ONLY reason listed for the imperishable aspect is that "flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom of heaven". So - Not applicable to the wicked. And neither do we have the teaching that the tree of life is not physical or that Christ's hands and feet after His resurrection were not physical or that the meal He predicts we will share with Him is not "really" eating.

In Christ,

Bob

[ November 23, 2002, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

I am already in this congenial mode so might as well keep going...

Ken
No. It (annihilation) only has to do with what verses like this mean -

2 Thessalonians 1:9(NASB)
9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Click to expand...

Let's not forget

God does not "enjoy" the death/punishment/torment of ANYONE - Ezek 18:23,32

Mal 4:1,3 The wicked are set ablaze and reduced to ashes.

Ezek 28:13-19 Satan himself will "be no more"

Ps 104:35 the wicked are to be "consumed" - to be no more.

Rev 20:9 fire "devours" the wicked. Ps 21:8-10

Prov 24:19-20 the wicked have absolutely "NO" future.

Matt 10:28 BOTH body AND soul are Destroyed in Hell

Isaiah 13:9 Sinners "are exterminated"

Rev 21:4 there will be no more "death" after the lake of fire consumes the earth and the New Heavens and New Earth are in place.

Luke 12:40, 47-48 He who Knew Much will Suffer Much. There are degrees of suffering in hell. It is not all "infinite" suffering.

So "yes" Rev 14:10-11 Is speaking about the "torment" of the wicked in fire and brimstone (physical elements). And Yes it is correct when it says that this all takes place "In the Presence of the Lamb AND of His Holy Ones".

But once that fire and brimstone lake of fire event (Rev 20) is over - there is a (Rev 21) New Heavens and a New Earth and God wipes away every tear. Rev 21:4 (And that does not mean making us callous toward the ongoing writhing in agony of our dear children roasting in hell).

Just some thoughts on what a few have called Ken's "other Gospel" - apparently it is one that is found in scripture.

In Christ,

Bob

[ November 23, 2002, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Just some thoughts on what a few have called Ken's "other Gospel"

Click to expand...

Thanks, Bob. I'm not sure I can handle all of this cooperation.

Ken