Where do you draw the line on booze?

Oh, No! Cynic is the one who issued the sermon challenge thing. I was ready to duel with pistols and rifles! And there is nothing wrong with taking pride in the best thing that one can do. My dad worked with the phone company-and he had pride in his work. Yes, its pride to say that I believe that I am good at what I do. A Thoracic Surgeon takes pride in the fact that he can rip through a chest cavity--bypass a few clogged arteries and sew you back up and you live to tell about it. Are you good at what you do? Do you strive to to it to the best of your ability?

 

"Hands down"? Are you proposing a game of SlapJacks instead?

--I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I could--

And I know beyond the substance of faith that I would give you as much, or more, than you could handle.

in fact, I know I'd win the challenge--even if you and I were face to face and the only beverages we had before us was Folgers Coffee and Nehi Grape sodas!!

And I'd win if you kept drinking one of those after the other. You might need an old can to spit in.

Thats how confident I am in the gift of preaching that Almighty God gave me!

Coffee and grape soda confident, huh? {Getting serious} Preaching is not a gift; it is an ability.

But to challenge you to a "Sermon Duel" with you holding onto your liquor as some sort of leverage in helping you to "top" ole Blackbird--

That was not it-- you made a silly boast that you could "do anything a hundred times better" than I if I sipped wine while doing it. The "leverage" involved was on your part. I did not claim I can better you with wine; you claimed you can better me {by 100x} without wine. {Incidentally, "liquor" normally means distilled beverages, much higher in alcohol content; not fermented juice.}

(1) would be showing my lack of dignity and respect for the gift that God gave me

Maybe; maybe not. No telling how many persons may have read what you [and I] would have written, and whether it may have been a positive message for them.

(2) would be like Matt Dillon challenging Festus to a pistol "Draw" out on Main Street. Especially when Festus has just walked out of Miss Kitty's saloon tanked up!

Hey, bringing Gunsmoke into this really makes a connection between us! That is my favorite television series of all time, and I have written about 15 fanfiction stories based on the characters, including one 'novelette' where some of the characters from the movie Shenandoah [with Jimmy Stewart, Doug McClure, et al] come through Dodge City while migrating west. But perhaps this should be a different thread.

Anyway, there were, and are, differing theories about gunmen and liquor. A target shooter cannot be as accurate if he has had a few nips, or more. But if he was actually fighting a gunbattle with the fear and agitation upon him, the liquor may actually quell some of that, and even organized armies or defenders of a settlement applied this principle in times long past as they were preparing for battle.

The best to you and yours!

And to you and yours!

[ August 27, 2002, 11:08 PM: Message edited by: ChristianCynic ]

 

I propose that "Baptist Board" be re-named to "K-2 Board" !!

 

blackbird said:

Buddy, I can "pig out" over at Shoney's buffet. . . . I can "pig out" at the buffet bar--

And when you do so, you will be guilty of the sin of gluttony.

Sin is not determined by what the potential consequences are or how easily you can nullify the effects. Sin is determined by what God has decreed.

If I were to accept this brand of reasoning, then drunkenness isn't a sin. Since I don't have a car, I cannot drink and drive. Since I am single, I don't have a family to beat. Therefore, if I become inebriated, all I need to do is go home and sleep it off, and in the morning I will be sober.

 

Well, what you said is, "I can do anything a hundred times better without a sip of that junk than you can sippin it!!" Nothing about target shooting (or duelling, which is something else altogether from a target shooting contest ). Anything sounds to me like an invitation to take up the challenge on, well, anything.

[ August 28, 2002, 12:42 PM: Message edited by: A.J.Armitage ]

 

Hey, Armitage!
Lighten up! Its a figure of speech--just to know that I can do anything sober better than Cynic can under the influence!

 

Here is a link that you all might find interesting.

The Bible and alcoholic beverages

Enjoy!

 

Smokeater,
Sorry, I was just trying to make a point about some of the things that Have been supported on this site...I did go back and read your post and I believe I owe you an apology...you know it's hard to see that tongue-in-cheek humor over the web...Ok here is another thing to think about...I do not lay claim to a vast knowledge, but have been taught then when Jesus was drinking wine that it was not an alchoholic beverage but basically "fruit of the vine"...The reason given was in those days "leven" was used to make alchohol and leven represented sin in those times so Jesus could not have had "wine" because he knew no sin...Once again, here is my disclaimer...I do not have extensive knowledge but this is what I was taught and it does seem to make sense...I also know that a couple of people keep getting caught up in "the old drink to excess arguement" but yet no one answered my question about what this would do to the testimony of lets say a Pastor seen buying wine at the old 7-11..wouldn't it be better to avoid the appearance of evil altogether...Oh well, once again sorry to smokeater and maybe adding a little more ideas to ponder instead of back and forth arguements seen too often

 

Ransom,
It just all depends on how you define the word "glutton." To a woman who is 4'7" tall and weighs 99 lbs.--why, just one 6" plate of fruit over at Shoney's will be enough--but to a man who is 6'7"--he's ready to have a "Shaq-attack"--you know he's gonna get the "All-You-Can-Eat" fish plate!! At what point does gluttany begin?

 

blackbird asked:

At what point does gluttany begin?

Well, if I were to borrow the logic of the militant tetotallers, if eating five plates at the buffet makes you a glutton, then eating one plate makes you one-fifth gluttonous.

I would say that just as drunkenness is the result of excessive overindulgence in alcohol, gluttony is the result of excessive overindulgence in food.

[ August 30, 2002, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: Ransom ]

 

I'm all out and totally with Helen on this one.
Personally, I will not make the occassional use of alcohol or tobacco a test of fellowship. But I will draw the line on habitual use and drunkenness, though.
I don't drink, for health reasons.

 

The problem with what you have been taught is that leaven did not always represent sin. Sometimes it did (maybe even usually it did), but not always, for Jesus Himself tells us:

Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven....(Luke 13:20)

So that particular argument for abstinence is a very weak one.

 

A clue to when you are drinking too much(becoming addicted), as I was told many years ago at a treatment center, is the following:

When you HAVE to have a drink, whether 1,2,3, etc. on a daily, weekly, or monthly basis and can't go for 6 MONTHS without this regular routine, you are considered as addicted(alcoholic). My drinking days are far in the past and I would advise no one to drink, ever, as what you think is just a relaxing drink, can quickly become a need! Medically, a drink, especially Wine and for heart trouble a small shot of Brandy, is often prescribed by doctors over "pills" with all the side affects. But that is no excuse for abuse, which comes easily to many. As a Baptist, I oppose any drinking, but I learned it the hard way as I said in an earlier post. However, I do not think it is a sin if it is occsaional and just a few, at most... and not every day!

For abusive or over-eating, one only has to get a proper calorie list from your local hospital or doctor to see what calories you need to maintain your PROPER weight. Any amount over this daily can be considered abusive eating(gluttony).

God Bless.............Alex

 

For abusive or over-eating, one only has to get a proper calorie list from your local hospital or doctor to see what calories you need to maintain your PROPER weight. Any amount over this daily can be considered abusive eating(gluttony).

This takes us back to an unanswered question: If you exceed your ideal daily energy intake by 100 Calories, is that 100 sins? or how many? And if it is Thanksgiving and you exceed it by 2 or 3 thousand, how many then? And remembering Calories with the captial 'C' actually means kilocalories {1000 x the energy to raise the temperature of one ml of water one degree celsius}, then is exceeding the number by 100 100,000 sins? or just 100,000 times as great a sin as if you exceeded it by one {supposing counting could be nearly that accurate}?

Then how about if you exceed your ideal energy intake by 1500 Calories one day, then the next day is one of prayer and fasting? While it is not true we can compensate for sin, since only the blood of Jesus does that, the net result of this mode comes out the same... we are close to our ideal 2-day intake, and if there was sin on day #1, it is forgiven and and not remembered {Hebrews 10:17}.

Back to alcohol... if research indicates a daily glass of wine is good for someone with potential heart trouble, then would it be sin to not take this daily glass, especially if it is prescribed by a physician? Then if it is exceeded by an additional glass, it that one sin or many, depending on the relative alcohol content? {the same if it were reduced by half a glass...}?

 

I think we are splitting "hairs" with the above. My post was meant to be a "general" statement for those who have a problem. Your ACTIONS and average weight are the key to your answers.

And YES, I am a habitual sinner when it comes to eating the too much and the wrong types of food. I agree that what you said about from one day to the next, if you eat too much one day and not enough the next, is this a balance, of sorts.

All holiday eating for most is abusive and a lot of heart attacks are caused by this. I believe that almost all of us are somewhat guilty of over-eating anytime there is an abundance of food to eat.

As for the medical reason for a drink, you can choose to have regular medicine. On these two issues, most of us look for legit reasons to do these things rather than to avoid both and be on the safe side.

So, your thoughts again.

God Bless.........Alex

 

I’m going to change the topic a little but bear with me. Examine yourselves. Are you completely consistent? So you don’t think working in a place, or patronizing a place that serve liquor is proper.

Here is another analogy. I work as a Registered Nurse; there are only a handful of hospitals (few and far between) in the country that do not perform abortion. Would you work at a facility that performs this abomination? Would you go to one if you were sick? Would you risk your life or your loved ones life by traveling to a more distant hospital.

 

To be consistant we need to do what the Spirit directs us to do. Gluttony is the sin, not 100 calories. Being fat is not a sin (some people are bigger than others, God made them that way) On the other hand some people do eat way to much!

A drink for health is good for you. We need to weigh this with the fact that in America, at this time, drink is accociated with revelry and a loose life. Where do we stand as a witness to others?

[ August 31, 2002, 08:21 PM: Message edited by: Deacon ]

 

Hello, Deacon and welcome as a fairly new member.

For both of your posts, a question that you can ask yourself usually will do the trick on what/when, etc you do things. Ask: What would Jesus do in this situation? Eating...same thing. Drinking......same thing.

As for working at a hospital or associating with abortionists, Homos, etc., we have to live and work in the secular world which means that we will often be around vile or non-Christian people. About 80 percent of the secular world could care less about Jesus or the Bible. We can't hide from them, BUT we can be a witness.

While in ICU after bypass surgery in BR, one of my nurses, who was a very good nurse, was a Homo. I was OUT for the whole time and didn't know untill later, but I would still have had to have him as the hospital calls the shots.

So, life goes on but we do not have to be like the "evil" ones. Again, use Jesus to define who or what is evil, if you don't have a Bible for reference. If you know enough about Jesus, much is easy to answer without scripture. I call it, reading between the lines.

God Bless...........Alex

 

I’ve worked through my answer to the question of where God wants me. It’s different with every person though. God calls some of us to be hands and others to be toes, some to be ears and it certainly seems He has called many to be appendix’s.

Jesus was accused by the Pharisees of being a glutton and a drunkard. Public opinion didn’t matter much to Him as long as He knew He was doing His Fathers work. God may call some of us to work as clerks in a store that sells liquor.

From a practical point of view we probably should examine the brother or sister in this situation, checking their purpose or reasoning for accepting the position. I think we have a strong reason to be concerned, and perhaps to offer our assistance in securing another position. In fact, I’d be fearful of the person’s Christian walk and would strongly warn the brother about falling away.

 

No problem.

I can't tell you how many things I've said jokingly that got lost in the translation and ended up being taken the wrong way.

Mike