continuing God's Sovereignty on Reprobation

pinoybaptist · Jul 27, 2002

In the Westminster Confession it is said, "God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably foreordain whatsoever comes to pass." The late Mr. F. W. Grant-a most careful and cautious student and writer-commenting on these words said: "It is perfectly, divinely true, that God hath ordained for His own glory whatsoever comes to pass." Now if these statements are true, is not the doctrine of Reprobation established by them? What, in human history, is the one thing which does come to pass every day? What, but that men and women die, pass out of this world into a hopeless eternity, an eternity of suffering and woe. If then God has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass then He must have decreed that vast numbers of human beings should pass out of this world unsaved to suffer eternally in the Lake of Fire. Admitting the general premise, is not the specific conclusion inevitable?

In reply to the preceding paragraphs the reader may say, All this is simply reasoning, logical no doubt, but yet mere inferences. Very well, we will now point out that in addition to the above conclusions there are many passages in Holy Writ which are most clear and definite in their teaching on this solemn subject; passages which are too plain to be misunderstood and too strong to be evaded. The marvel is that so many good men have denied their undeniable affirmations.

"Joshua made war a long time with all those kings. There was not a city that made peace with the children of Israel, save the Hivites the inhabitants of Gibeon: all other they took in battle. For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that He might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favor, but that He might destroy them as the LORD commanded Moses" (Josh. 11:18-20). What could be plainer than this? Here was a large number of Canaanites whose hearts the Lord hardened, whom He had purposed to utterly destroy, to whom He showed "no favor." Granted that they were wicked, immoral, idolatrous; were they any worse than the immoral, idolatrous cannibals of the South Sea Islands (and many other places), to whom God gave the Gospel through John G. Paton! Assuredly not. Then why did not Jehovah command Israel to teach the Canaanites His laws and instruct them concerning sacrifices to the true God? Plainly, because He had marked them out for destruction, and if so, that from all eternity.

"The LORD hath made all things for Himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil" (Prov. 16:4). That the Lord made all, perhaps every reader of this book will allow: that He made all for Himself is not so widely believed. That God made us, not for our own sakes, but for Himself; not for our own happiness, but for His glory, is, nevertheless, repeatedly affirmed in Scripture-Revelation 4:11. But Proverbs 16:4 goes even farther: it expressly declares that the Lord made the wicked for the Day of Evil: that was His design in giving them being. But why? Does not Romans 9:17 tell us, "For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew My power in thee, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth"! God has made the wicked that, at the end, He may demonstrate His power"-demonstrate it by showing what an easy matter it is for Him to subdue the stoutest rebel and to overthrow His mightiest enemy.
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Ray Berrian · Jul 28, 2002

God is not setting up an exhibition. He is not required to show human beings anything like you have suggested. He knows his unlimited capabilities. The stoutest rebels and His mightiest enemies will not be able to stand in His Presence. 'Every knee shall bow . . . ' 'The nations are as a drop in {His} bucket.' But, thanks be to God you and I are adopted sons and daughters of the living God.

Even one of your own Calvinistic brethren, Mr. Harold Camping, says that Christians should go over their creeds and filter out the error. He said this even about the Westminster Confession. Only the reflective views of some trained students/scholars. Our concern is to adhere only to God's Word, the Bible.

The fact is that probably only a small number considering the billions of people will ever make it into His Presence to live with Him forever. Some say 2-3% . . .

pinoybaptist · Jul 28, 2002

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity" (Matt. 7:23). In the previous chapter it has been shown that the words "know" and "foreknowledge" when applied to God in the Scriptures, have reference not simply to His prescience (i.e., His bare knowledge beforehand), but to His knowledge of approbation. When God said to Israel, "You only have I known of all the families of the earth" (Amos 3:2), it is evident that He meant, "You only had I any favorable regard to." When we read in Romans 11:2 "God hath not cast away His people (Israel) which He foreknew," it is obvious that what was signified is, "God has not finally rejected that people whom He has chosen as the objects of His love"-cf. Deuteronomy 7:8. In the same way (and it is the only possible way) are we to understand Matthew 7:23. In the Day of Judgment the Lord will say unto many, "I never knew you." Note, it is more than simply "I know you not." His solemn declaration will be, "I never knew you"-you were never the objects of My approbation. Contrast this with "I know (love) My sheep, and am known (loved) of Mine" (John 10:14). The "sheep," His elect, the "few" He does "know"; but the reprobate, the non-elect, the "many" He knows not-no, not even before the foundation of the world did He know them-He "NEVER" knew them!

In Romans 9 the doctrine of God's Sovereignty in its application to both the elect and the reprobate is treated of at length. A detailed exposition of this important chapter would be beyond our present scope; all that we can essay is to dwell upon the part of it which most clearly bears upon the aspect of the subject which we are now considering.

Verse 17. "For the Scripture saith unto Pharoah, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show My power in thee, and that My name might be declared throughout all the earth." These words refer us back to verses 13 and 14. In verse 13 God's love to Jacob and His hatred to Esau are declared. In verse 14 it is asked "Is there unrighteousness with God?" and here in verse 17 the Apostle continues his reply to the objection. We cannot do better now than quote from Calvin's comments upon this verse. "There are here two things to be considered-the predestination of Pharaoh to ruin, which is to be referred to the past and yet the hidden counsel of God-and then, the design of this, which was to make known the name of God. As many interpreters, striving to modify this passage, pervert it, we must observe, that for the word 'I have raised thee up,' or stirred up, in the Hebrew is, 'I have appointed,' by which it appears, that God, designing to show that the contumacy of Pharaoh would not prevent Him to deliver His people, not only affirms that his fury had been foreseen by Him, and that He had prepared means for restraining it, but that He had also thus designedly ordained it and indeed for this end,-that He might exhibit a more illustrious evidence of His own power." It will be observed that Calvin gives as the force of the Hebrew word which Paul renders "For this cause have I raised thee up,"-"I have appointed." As this is the word on which the doctrine and argument of the verse turns we would further point out that in making this quotation from Exodus 9:16 the Apostle significantly departs from the Septuagint-the version then in common use, and from which he most frequently quotes-and substitutes a clause for the first that is given by the Septuagint: instead of "On this account thou hast been preserved," he gives "For this very end have I raised thee up!"
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KenH · Jul 28, 2002

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
The fact is that probably only a small number considering the billions of people will ever make it into His Presence to live with Him forever. Some say 2-3% . . .
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Fact? Don't more than 3% die each year through abortion, miscarriage, and disease when they are still very, very young?

I thank God that I am now a postmillennialist and now believe that more than some tiny percentage will be in heaven.

Ken
A Happy Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org

Ray Berrian · Jul 28, 2002

Ken Hamilton,

It is your wish to disagree with Jesus in Acts7:14. I tend to agree with my Lord.

KenH · Jul 28, 2002

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
It is your wish to disagree with Jesus in Acts7:14. I tend to agree with my Lord.
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(Acts 7:14 NKJV) "Then Joseph sent and called his father Jacob and all his relatives to him, seventy-five people.

Ray, I don't see the connection.

Ken
A Happy Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org

pinoybaptist · Jul 29, 2002

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
<snip>The fact is that probably only a small number considering the billions of people will ever make it into His Presence to live with Him forever. Some say 2-3% . . .
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Hmmmm....and yet you say we Calvinists/Electionists are the ones who portray God as unmerciful and "escorting billions of souls to hell". (Do you do drugs, Ray ? Just kidding).

Ray Berrian · Jul 29, 2002

Ken Hamilton,

Sorry about the wrong reference. We were discussing about the idea that approximately 2-3%
can in any way be classified as Christian. This would mean that about 97% of all human kind is outside the pale of God's wonderful grace. I meant to jot down Matthew 7:14 instead of Acts 7:14. The first reference indicates that Jesus said that only ' . . . few there be that find the strait gate and the narrow way that leads to life.

Arminians realize that lets say--over 90% of all human beings will not make it to Heaven, but not because of some decree that God makes. The majority of people will not make it because they have never heard the name of Christ. Many will willfully transgress against the wooing of the Holy Spirit. These will receive the 'greater punishment in the realm of the lost.'

Ray Berrian

KenH · Jul 29, 2002

Ray,

I believe that you and your Arminian brethren are wrong. But we can keep going round and round on this without any further profit.

You can live your life looking forward to a small group joining you in heaven and I can live my life looking forward to most of those ever conceived joining me in heaven.

I think I have the more hopeful, joyful outlook. I have no interest in trading it for your pessimism.

Ken
A Joyful Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org

pinoybaptist · Jul 30, 2002

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Arminians realize that lets say--over 90% of all human beings will not make it to Heaven, but not because of some decree that God makes.

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Some decree ? Let's hear God on His "some decree":
Isaiah 43:1-7
1 But now thus saith the LORD that created thee, O Jacob, and he that formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art mine.
2 When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.
3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.
4 Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.
5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;
6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth; 7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

I suppose you will now argue that north and south and all the ends of the earth pertain only to Israel or the middle east and only for Isaiah's time ?
Some decree ?

The majority of people will not make it because they have never heard the name of Christ. Many will willfully transgress against the wooing of the Holy Spirit. These will receive the 'greater punishment in the realm of the lost.'

Ray Berrian
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You always limit the power of God, and the extent of Christ's finished work on the cross. I do not think we worship the same God for the God we worship is Almighty, whose will cannot be broken, and whose eternal designs and purposes are certainly not subject to the will and permissions of worms and dust.
The God we worship is certainly loving in that He designed to have mercy on people who deserve no mercy at all, but he is certainly not a weak, sweating, hand-wringing bachelor who nervously woos sinners and gets rejection after rejection if I am to believe what you say.
The God we worship achieved what He came into this earth for: the salvation of HIS people. He cried it is finished ! and when He says it is finished, it is finished.
All that the Father gave Him from eternity past for eternity future are redeemed, and in His due time He will call them home to Him, whether in this plane called time, or not.

Ray Berrian · Jul 30, 2002

pinoybaptist,

Christians who lean more toward an Arminian theology also believe that God has decreed some things, but not personal salvation. Just so you know . . .

The true God has done all that He can do to save sinners. All sinner have to do is sincerely believe in Jesus saving benefits accomplished on the old, rugged Cross.

Ray Berrian · Aug 2, 2002

Ken Hamilton,

What could be more pessimistic than what Spurgeon believed. He, I'm sure, believed that God autocratically chosen His own people to salvation and damned the greater group to Hell. According to Calvinism these are not relegated to Hell for 30,000 years but forever. This is hopelessness to the extremity. Can we even try to imagine. In Hell forever--this is greater than pessimism, wouldn't you agree?

pinoybaptist · Aug 2, 2002

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
pinoybaptist,

Christians who lean more toward an Arminian theology also believe that God has decreed some things, but not personal salvation. Just so you know . . .

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Yeah, right.
Like, "God, you have the say on anything and everything except my eternal destiny. That is my territory. Not yours."

The true God has done all that He can do to save sinners. All sinner have to do is sincerely believe in Jesus saving benefits accomplished on the old, rugged Cross
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Now, He must sit back, having done all He could do to save sinners, and hope us poor, miserable, corrupted souls will take notice of Him and His sacrifice and repent with no help from Him.

Ray Berrian · Aug 3, 2002

pinoybaptist,

Your last paragraph may be alright for argruments sake, but it is totally unbiblical as far as the correct way we see things.

God isn't just sitting on the side lines hoping someone will receive Him. He is actively convicting and convincing people of their need of He and His salvation. [Rev. 22:17]

He has decreed the free agency of human beings either in neglecting Him or receiving His new life in Christ. The sooner you agree with the Bible you will not have to come up with forced, theories like all unsaved infants not ordained to Heaven-- entering Hell forever.

KenH · Aug 3, 2002

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
He, I'm sure, believed that God autocratically chosen His own people to salvation and damned the greater group to Hell. In Hell forever--this is greater than pessimism, wouldn't you agree?
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Ray,

According to Spurgeonism, God graciously reaches down to poor sinners and saves them to the glory of His mercy. Those that are lost damn themselves by their own sin and God places them in hell to the glory of His justice.

Yes, it is very sad that anyone ends up in hell. It is also very sad that there are people teaching that people can do something to save themselves by their own ability. According to your understanding of how salvation takes place, Ray, if it were true, then certainly no one who reached a point in life where they were accountable for their sin would be saved - ever.

Ken
A Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org

ScottEmerson · Aug 3, 2002

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
According to Spurgeonism, God graciously reaches down to poor sinners and saves them to the glory of His mercy. Those that are lost damn themselves by their own sin and God places them in hell to the glory of His justice.
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So God chooses NOT to save some? How is that any different at all from God choosing to send them to go to Hell?

According to your understanding of how salvation takes place, Ray, if it were true, then certainly no one who reached a point in life where they were accountable for their sin would be saved - ever.
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From where do you get THAT logic? Only by inserting your own assumptions in the foreign (to you) model of Arminianism do you get to that point.

KenH · Aug 3, 2002

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
So God chooses NOT to save some? How is that any different at all from God choosing to send them to go to Hell?

From where do you get THAT logic?
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1) All the difference in the world, Scott.

2) From man's inability as explained by Christ Jesus.

(John 6:44 NKJV) "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

(John 6:65 NKJV) And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

Ken
A Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org

pinoybaptist · Aug 3, 2002

Here are some more scriptures, Scott:

Romans 9:21-24

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour ? What if God, willing to shew His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction; And that he might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles ?
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KenH · Aug 3, 2002

That passage in Romans does not say God fitted the vessels of wrath for destruction but it does say He prepared the vessels of mercy for glory.

Salvation and damnation are not symmetrical as God is the cause of salvation but not of damnation. Salvation is all of God, but damnation is all of man.

Ken
A Spurgeonite
www.spurgeon.org

[ August 03, 2002, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

pinoybaptist · Aug 3, 2002

No, Ken, it does not say fitted for but it does say fitted to destruction. My point is that God did choose His people whom He will save, and not all of humanity, as some of our friends imply.

Now, for Scott:

Romans 11:7-8

What then ? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for: but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded .
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber , eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
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