When these are in hell, does God still love them?

Hell is the product of the wrath of God, the expression of the judgement according to His righteousness, holiness and love against sin.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

I answer no.

Psalm 5:5(NASB)
5 The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes;
You hate all who do iniquity.

Psalm 11:5(NASB)
5 The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked,
And the one who loves violence His soul hates.

Ken

 

They are not of the elect... Christ didn't die for them... They are not of his sheep... His blood was not shed for them... He wasn't resurrected for them... They were not given by the Father to him... They will never come to know him in this life and their heart will not be changed by him... They will not be born again... He cannot look on them as they are full of sin and an abomination to him who is holy. The intensity of his hatred and every wickedness that they stand for is holy hatred because their father is Satan ... Now someone please correct my error if he loves them doesn't he also love their father? ... Brother Glen

 

If he hated them as much as you say He does, why does Christ openly weep for the unbelieving Jerusalem?

 

Scott bone up on your biblical history... Jerusalem was laid waste in 70 AD... Just like Jesus predicted!... He loves his children with and everlasting love and hates those not his with an everlasting hatred!... The bible states nothing less... He will save all his children and take them to heaven!... That's all I need to know I concentrate on things in heaven I'm not concerned about hell!... Brother Glen

 

Doesn't matter. The fact is that he states, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."

Do you hear any hatred in his voice here?

 

Scott did - but let me do it for him again

YES!

 

Since heaven is the ultimate presence of God, and therefore Hell is the ultimate absence of God, I don't think Hell is about whether or not they are loved by God, but whether or not they experience God. To that end, the answer is "no".

 

Rev. 14 says they will be tormented in the presence of the Lamb and his holy angels. This Lamb is Christ, Christ is the second person of the Godhead, being the Son, He is God.

God does not love that for which He shed His blood to take away. Judgement is not personal guys, it is against sin.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

Anybody want to deal with these verses?

Psalm 5:5 - The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity.

Psalm 11:5 - The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, And the one who loves violence His soul hates.

 

God So LOVED the World that He Gave His only Son -

Yes God loves those in hell.

Oh - but He rejected them - He forsook them?

Matt 23:37 "Oh Jerusalem... how I WANTED to gather your children... but YOU would not.. behold your house is left unto you desolate".

Luke 7:30-34 "They rejected God's Purpose for them. .. We played the Flute you did not dance... we sang a dirge but you would not weep"

2Peter 3:9 "God is not Willing for ANY to perish but for ALL to come to repentance"

God "Brings salvation to ALL" Titus 2:11.

Ezek 18:31-32 "I HAVE NO PLEASURE in the death of ANYONE".

The view that God looks on gleefully as your child writhes in agony throughout all of time - is not the view scripture paints - and that's a good thing.

When a parent tends to the wound of a child - even though it hurts that child it is for the best.

God is both just and Loving.

When an owner executes a horse that has irreparable damage - it is out of love as much as anything else.

When a parent allows a child to go off to fight in a war - and loses that child - it is not out of hate - nor does it mean that they did not love that child.

These are all scenarios in THIS life where allowing or causing pain to someone - does not require the ceasation of love.

Yes - God "IS Love" 1John 4:8

God's Fire and Brimstone are "real" and they burn real people - causing real people pain and suffering Rev 14:10 But Christ and all His holy ones are there for the whole thing. "IN the Presence of the Lamb and of His Holy Ones".

Even as saints - Loved by God by all acocunts - even by those who declare that God is hate - or God is Wrath - yet what does He say??

Matt 10:28 "FEAR Him who is able to Destroy BOTH Body And Soul in Hell".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Psalm 11:5 - "The LORD tests the righteous, but the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates. Upon the wicked He will rain coals, fire and brimstone and a burning wind; This shall be the portion of their cup."

It is a VERY good thing! I'm glad that isn't what Scripture teaches, nor what "Calvinists" believe.

We "Calvinists" haven't declared "God is hate." We have stated, however, that God "hates" and that He does pour out His wrath. There is a massive difference between these assertions.

Nonetheless, what He does say is this:

Psalm 11:5 - "The LORD tests the righteous, but the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates. Upon the wicked He will rain coals, fire and brimstone and a burning wind; This shall be the portion of their cup."

Rev. G

 

Rev.14:11 is one of the most misread verses in the Bible. People see "smoke...for ever and ever", and right away think "Hell", and now we are left with the problem of God tormenting sinners "in his presence" forever, when other passages say sin will be finally put away and remembered no more.
Look at the context! This passage is not even talking about the final judgment, which doesn't even come until 1000 years after all of this. (Armageddon) It's the human kingdoms and power that is being reduced to "smoke" now-- this is the eternal destruction of the evil human governments and societies, not [yet] the people's souls. And they have "no rest day or night" during the dreadful plagues that are yet to be described.
All of this may sound like Hell, and in fact be a precursor to it, but we must not get it confused.

 

Rev 14 10-11 describes the ultimate end of the wicked. This is described before Rev 14:14-20 where the righteous are gathered to God and the wicked are pressed into the wrath of God.

14:9-10 is explicit about the fact that this is personnal and individual (not buildings - but people).

It is personnal and individual and it is carried out "in the presence of the holy ones and in the presence of the Lamb

It is the second death according to Rev 20 - the fire, the brimstone the smoke of their torment ascending up forever. And we notice that Even in Rev 20 it is still in the presence of the Lamb and His Holy ones - since the wicked have surrounded the city of God - "the camp of the saints" Rev 20:9.


Rev 20:
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


In Christ,

Bob

[ November 22, 2002, 03:14 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

Here he makes the point again --

Counter point:

And then of course we (Arminian) typically go on to show how God "So Loved the World".

In Christ,

Bob

 

I think we need to set up a "counter" for every time you use this, Bob.

So, in honor of your continual ignoring of many Reformed posts, let me introduce the "CounterPoint":

And so your precious child is writhing in the agony of Hell (In the Presence of the Lamb and all His Holy Ones - Rev 14:10) and God says "Oh no! I didn't have the power to save her! The power was within her free will. I really, really tried, but she just wouldn't accept Me. I had to submit to her sovereign autonomy. Alas! Now I don't have any choice but to pour out My wrath upon her. Although I foreknew she would never believe, and permitted her to be born, I still had some hope that my foreknowledge would not interfere with her free will and she would somehow see how loving I am and say "yes" - But you - smart, wise, wonderful, humble you - you knew what it took to escape Hell by exercising your free will to be here with Me. I'm so glad that you did! You are the center of the universe." And of course you respond "Well, I'm really grieved about my daughter, but at least there were some other smart and humble people who joined me here. God will wipe away every tear, I will be okay then - How wonderfully gracious!"

Rev. G

 

So, let me ask again - Anybody want to deal with these verses?

Psalm 5:5 - The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity.

Psalm 11:5 - The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, And the one who loves violence His soul hates.

 

That I believe is describing the mid-wrath rapture (not many hold this position, going for either pre-trib, post trib, pre-wrath/mid-trib, etc). It is the harvest Christ spoke of where the angels reap the earth. So yes, those individuals left after this point are headed for destruction (since this is not pre-trib, you don't have to have any more people getting saved after this final harvest), but the fire and brimstone you see now is still occuring before the resurrection of the unrighteous in chapter 20, and must be a different event than eternal Gehenna fire. In ch. 20, the wicked may surround the city of God, but they don't stay there for eternity, so that too is not yet the eternal Gehenna.

[ November 22, 2002, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: Eric B ]