Matthew 26:28

HOW WRONG CAN YOU BE!?!?!

Many is a number, not a comparison. Let's assume that 12 billion people will ever live on the earth. Does 12 million count as many? Yep. Does 12 million count as all? Yep.

Many CAN be the whole - there is nothing exclusive in the word.

 

Ken,

You said,

"When Jesus said in this passage that His precious blood was shed for 'many', I take Him at His word. Many is not the whole. Why did Jesus not say "all" when instituting the Lord's Supper. Because, as we are taught in Scripture as whole, He died with the expressed intent to save His people from their sins(Matthew 1:21)."

If the "many" indicates any limitation, it is simply idicative of the fact that no all men will take advantage of the sacrifice of Christ and thus receive remission of sins. In this respect, the atonement (which actually means reconciliation) is limited - limited to those who receive it. As Paul said, in the only New Testament instance of the word "atonement,"

"by whom we now have received the atonement."

If your argument proves anything about how "many" people Christ died for, it proves that Paul was the only man for whom Christ died, because he said,

"Who loved me, and gave himself for me."

Or that He only died for the church at Ephesus, since Paul said to the elders of that church,

"feed the church of God which he has purchased with his own blood."

Or that He died only for weak brethren, since Paul said,

"A weak brother perish, for whom Christ died."

You also said,

"Thus, the unScriptural teaching by some who claim that Jesus died with the intent of saving everyone who ever has, and will ever live - even those in hell at the time that Jesus died - is shown to be a false teaching by the Arminians and their fellow travelers."

Obviously, Jesus did not die with the intent of saving everyone, or He would have saved everyone. He did come, as I have proved in my thread on John 12:47-48, with the intent of giving all men an opportunity to be saved, and that he fully accomplished. It is now, as it has ever been, up to man to receive or reject Him.

I think one of the problems that Calvinists have on this point is in trying to define the sacrifice of Christ as a quantitative thing. Calvinists often say that if one person for whom Christ died is lost then some of Christ's blood was wasted, as if He shed a certain amount of blood for every person for whom He died.

Even we Biblicists sometimes make such emotional appeals as that Christ suffered "for every single sin I ever committed" as if He suffered more or less based on how many sins I committed or didn't commit. If such is true, then I cannnot possible refrain from any sin for which Christ has already died, lest some of His suffering were in vain.

I don't see where the Bible teaches that Christ had to suffer any more for one man than for a world of men. It simply says that "he tasted death for every man" which means that the benefits of His atoning death are offered to all men with distinction and without exception.

Mark Osgatharp

[ October 15, 2002, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Mark Osgatharp ]

 

I agree again with you Ken. You sound more like a Primitive Baptist than a Spurgenoite www.pb.org

 

I for one, tho not claiming to be Arminian, have never claimed that Christ died to save everybody. His death is sufficient for all, but efficient only through faith. His blood provides attonement for the many that will volitionally place their faith in him as their lord and savior.

This i believe as opposed to the false teachings of Calvinism that unscripturally say that he died only for some phanthom elect that he individually chose before the foundations that of the world.

Another fallacy bites the dust..... Still does not say that he died for an elect individual chosen before creation. The many can still be those that are drawn to him through faith.

Still makes absolutely no mention of any efficacious zapping either. To get that you have to squeeze/twist it out... Reading the passage, you would never even think of it unless it was in your head already.

[ October 15, 2002, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

I also agree with Ken... Ken are you sure deep inside you there is not a Primitive Baptist struggling to get out?... Just let it go my christian Brother!... Brother Glen

[ October 15, 2002, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: tyndale1946 ]

 

There never was reconciliation in the O.T. That did not occur until the eternal covenant established between God the Father and God the Son was completed.

Heb. 10.1-3

The completion of this work was looked forward to in each sacrifice brought to the High Priest and this looking forward also brought into view God passing over those sins in "covering" (which is "kaphar" in Ex. 29 & 33; and translated atone or atonement) This covering was provided in Christ, eternally.

Only those of Israel who brought those sacrifices looking forward to this day when the law, sacrifice and priesthood would be fulfilled in the Messiah, received the "kaphar."

The atonement of the O.T. never equalled that reconciliation that is provided in Christ.

God Bless you in your walk and service to Him.

Bro. Dallas

 

Eph. 1:4,

The only difference between a Hardshell and a Spurgeonite is that Hardshells have the honesty to consistently apply what the Spurgeonites believe.

Spurgeonites have to maintain their pretense of operating as if everything were not predestinated, because if they didn't they couldn't stay in fellowship with the other Baptists and they would have to become another split off group like the Hardshells.

Mark Osgatharp

 

Actually, Mark, I do believe that everything is predestinated.

So there.

Ken
A Spurgeonite</font>[/QUOTE]Ken,

I know you believe everything is predestinated. What I said is that Spurgeonites operate as if everything were not predestinated - for if they operated like Hardshells, they would not be welcome in regular Baptist circles.

For example, you have said that God did not foreordain the damnation of the reprobate, and yet you say all things are predestinated. But, I'm sure you will have some technical distinction between predestination and foreordaination.

Really, I don't know how you guys keep up with all your fire-extinguishers.

Mark Osgatharp

 

Mark all Primitive Baptist do not believe all things were predestinated... I believe only eternal life was predestinated for all of Gods elect. I don't believe in Absolute Predestination of all things... That is the Absoluter brethren... There are many factions of Prmitive Baptist or Hardshells as they are called or of Missionary Baptist to which you belong. Just straightening out the facts for you!... Brother Glen

 

Ken you are probably talking of Elder Lassere Bradley of the Baptist Bible Hour which originates from Cincinatti, Ohio... Brother Glen