Chris Temple
New Member
It has been suggested to me that Romans 9 has been avoided in the Calvinism/Arminianism debate and debate is not allowed on the "Seeker" thread. Please use this thread to discuss this particular chapter.
In that thread, I said this:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I agree, KayDee, it is vey clear.
First, let me say that even if Romans 9 taught “corporate election” (which it doesn’t) personal election is richly taught throughout all of the entire Scripture. But Romans 9 is teaching personal election to salvation.
Romans 9:1-33 (ESV)
I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— [2] that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. [3] For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. [4] They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. [5] To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
Here Paul has wished for his own reprobation – an anti-election – if only his fellow Jews would be called to believe in Christ. his emphasis on personal reprobation sets up his argument for personal election.
[6] But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, [7] and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." [8] This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. [9] For this is what the promise said: "About this time next year I will return and Sarah shall have a son." [10] And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, [11] though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call— [12] she was told, "The older will serve the younger." [13] As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
Paul says the word of God has not failed. Why? Because the purpose of the word is not to save a nation but to save all the elect from all nations; a people out of a people. “For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel” – all of the nation is not elect; there are individuals from within Israel who are elect. “the children of the promise are counted as offspring” – those whom God has chosen – personally and individually – to be saved. He compares individuals – Jacob and Esau – and individual works not yet done, either good or bad, to highlight the election of persons, not nations.
[14] What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! [15] For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." [16] So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. [17] For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." [18] So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Paul emphasizes that God is merciful to whomever he chooses. How does he highlight this? by using Pharaoh, one man, as an example of a reprobate. Pharaoh was raised up to power solely for the purpose of showing God’s power and glory.
[19] You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" [20] But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" [21] Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? [22] What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, [23] in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— [24] even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
The response of objection to Paul is from one hypothetical man: Why does he still find fault [with me?] Paul’s answer is direct and singular:” who are you, O man, to answer back to God?” A Potter makes one vessel at a time, each for a purpose. He then discusses “vessels” of wrath and “vessels” of mercy; individuals which make up each group. His emphasis of “us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles” clearly refers to individuals elected out of larger groups.
[25] As indeed he says in Hosea,
"Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,'
and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.' "
[26] "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,'
there they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "
[27] And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, [28] for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay." [29] And as Isaiah predicted,
"If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah."
Again, only a presuppositional bias against individual election would find anything here that speaks against individuals elected out of “Those who were not my people”, and individuals elected to the remnant of Israel.
[30] What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; [31] but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. [32] Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, [33] as it is written,
"Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."
All Gentiles have not attained salvation; all Israel is not lost. Those who have faith are saved by grace. “whoever believes in him will not be put to shame”. That is not corporate belief, but election.
After saying all that, the corporate election argument really refutes itself, for who are corporations made up of if not individuals? It does not alleviate their dilemma: if a nation were elect, it would still mean all individuals within that specific nation were elect, because they were individuals within that nation and others aren’t, and so the “problem” of individual election remains. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In that thread, I said this:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I agree, KayDee, it is vey clear.
First, let me say that even if Romans 9 taught “corporate election” (which it doesn’t) personal election is richly taught throughout all of the entire Scripture. But Romans 9 is teaching personal election to salvation.
Romans 9:1-33 (ESV)
I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— [2] that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. [3] For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, my kinsmen according to the flesh. [4] They are Israelites, and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises. [5] To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.
Here Paul has wished for his own reprobation – an anti-election – if only his fellow Jews would be called to believe in Christ. his emphasis on personal reprobation sets up his argument for personal election.
[6] But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, [7] and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." [8] This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. [9] For this is what the promise said: "About this time next year I will return and Sarah shall have a son." [10] And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, [11] though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call— [12] she was told, "The older will serve the younger." [13] As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
Paul says the word of God has not failed. Why? Because the purpose of the word is not to save a nation but to save all the elect from all nations; a people out of a people. “For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel” – all of the nation is not elect; there are individuals from within Israel who are elect. “the children of the promise are counted as offspring” – those whom God has chosen – personally and individually – to be saved. He compares individuals – Jacob and Esau – and individual works not yet done, either good or bad, to highlight the election of persons, not nations.
[14] What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! [15] For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." [16] So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. [17] For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." [18] So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
Paul emphasizes that God is merciful to whomever he chooses. How does he highlight this? by using Pharaoh, one man, as an example of a reprobate. Pharaoh was raised up to power solely for the purpose of showing God’s power and glory.
[19] You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" [20] But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" [21] Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? [22] What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, [23] in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— [24] even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
The response of objection to Paul is from one hypothetical man: Why does he still find fault [with me?] Paul’s answer is direct and singular:” who are you, O man, to answer back to God?” A Potter makes one vessel at a time, each for a purpose. He then discusses “vessels” of wrath and “vessels” of mercy; individuals which make up each group. His emphasis of “us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles” clearly refers to individuals elected out of larger groups.
[25] As indeed he says in Hosea,
"Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,'
and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.' "
[26] "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,'
there they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "
[27] And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, [28] for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay." [29] And as Isaiah predicted,
"If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring,
we would have been like Sodom
and become like Gomorrah."
Again, only a presuppositional bias against individual election would find anything here that speaks against individuals elected out of “Those who were not my people”, and individuals elected to the remnant of Israel.
[30] What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; [31] but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. [32] Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone, [33] as it is written,
"Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense;
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."
All Gentiles have not attained salvation; all Israel is not lost. Those who have faith are saved by grace. “whoever believes in him will not be put to shame”. That is not corporate belief, but election.
After saying all that, the corporate election argument really refutes itself, for who are corporations made up of if not individuals? It does not alleviate their dilemma: if a nation were elect, it would still mean all individuals within that specific nation were elect, because they were individuals within that nation and others aren’t, and so the “problem” of individual election remains. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
.