Psalm 58:3 (and babies)

Latterrain,
You forgot to mention the premise I posed in regards to "silence" in respect to woman and scripture. Does this (silence) necesarilly intend to imply that because scriptures are written (primarily) to men that woman are excluded from the responsibilty based upon them NOT being mentioned in the scriptures? No! This can be contrasted with the infant and that which we are discussing.

Harmony shows that all have sinned........All have fallen short of Gods glory; including the infant.

John the baptist was NOT regenerated before the foundation of the world. He may have been elected, but he wasn't saved until he was regenerated. Paul himself states that *WE* (this includes John the baptist) were dead in tresspasses and sins. "Children of wrath". Your premise that those whom are saved from the foundation of the world, and so, have always been saved, does not hold water when laid along side scripture. They were "scheduled to be regenerated on acertain day, and were not actually saved until that time.....prior to this day, they were (as Paul says of himself) "Children of wrath".

You have intentionally disregarded scriptural harmony to supplant your theory. Harmony shows that when the term "men or man" is spoken of, many examples point to the inclusion of men, woman, children etc....

Also:
You didn't make mention to the passage from Romans I presented. R 5:17-20 (see above)

[ November 10, 2002, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: Scott_Bushey ]

 

Latterrain asks:
Hi Scott. I thank you for your input concerning Deut. 1: 39. You did not comment on that part of the verse that say’s “children did not know good or evil.”

Scott states:
I have seen previously where Romans 5:13 was used also to support the premise that ignorance equals "above the law".

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Based upon this idea. After doing a little research......

Scotts response:
I think Leviticus 4/5 deal with this issue.....

Lev 4:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 4:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:
Lev 4:3 If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.
Lev 4:4 And he shall bring the bullock unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD; and shall lay his hand upon the bullock's head, and kill the bullock before the LORD.
Lev 4:5 And the priest that is anointed shall take of the bullock's blood, and bring it to the tabernacle of the congregation:
Lev 4:6 And the priest shall dip his finger in the blood, and sprinkle of the blood seven times before the LORD, before the veil of the sanctuary.
Lev 4:7 And the priest shall put some of the blood upon the horns of the altar of sweet incense before the LORD, which is in the tabernacle of the congregation; and shall pour all the blood of the bullock at the bottom of the altar of the burnt offering, which is at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Lev 4:8 And he shall take off from it all the fat of the bullock for the sin offering; the fat that covereth the inwards, and all the fat that is upon the inwards,
Lev 4:9 And the two kidneys, and the fat that is upon them, which is by the flanks, and the caul above the liver, with the kidneys, it shall he take away,
Lev 4:10 As it was taken off from the bullock of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall burn them upon the altar of the burnt offering.
Lev 4:11 And the skin of the bullock, and all his flesh, with his head, and with his legs, and his inwards, and his dung,
Lev 4:12 Even the whole bullock shall he carry forth without the camp unto a clean place, where the ashes are poured out, and burn him on the wood with fire: where the ashes are poured out shall he be burnt.
Lev 4:13 And if the whole congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which should not be done, and are guilty;
Lev 4:14 When the sin, which they have sinned against it, is known, then the congregation shall offer a young bullock for the sin, and bring him before the tabernacle of the congregation.
Lev 4:15 And the elders of the congregation shall lay their hands upon the head of the bullock before the LORD: and the bullock shall be killed before the LORD.
Lev 4:16 And the priest that is anointed shall bring of the bullock's blood to the tabernacle of the congregation:
Lev 4:17 And the priest shall dip his finger in some of the blood, and sprinkle it seven times before the LORD, even before the veil.
Lev 4:18 And he shall put some of the blood upon the horns of the altar which is before the LORD, that is in the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall pour out all the blood at the bottom of the altar of the burnt offering, which is at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Lev 4:19 And he shall take all his fat from him, and burn it upon the altar.
Lev 4:20 And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.
Lev 4:21 And he shall carry forth the bullock without the camp, and burn him as he burned the first bullock: it is a sin offering for the congregation.
Lev 4:22 When a ruler hath sinned, and done somewhat through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD his God concerning things which should not be done, and is guilty;
Lev 4:23 Or if his sin, wherein he hath sinned, come to his knowledge; he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a male without blemish:
Lev 4:24 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the goat, and kill it in the place where they kill the burnt offering before the LORD: it is a sin offering.
Lev 4:25 And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out his blood at the bottom of the altar of burnt offering.
Lev 4:26 And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev 4:27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;
Lev 4:28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.
Lev 4:29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.
Lev 4:30 And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar.
Lev 4:31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev 4:32 And if he bring a lamb for a sin offering, he shall bring it a female without blemish.
Lev 4:33 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay it for a sin offering in the place where they kill the burnt offering.
Lev 4:34 And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar:
Lev 4:35 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.

LEV 5

Lev 5:14 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 5:15 If a soul commit a trespass, and sin through ignorance, in the holy things of the LORD; then he shall bring for his trespass unto the LORD a ram without blemish out of the flocks, with thy estimation by shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for a trespass offering:
Lev 5:16 And he shall make amends for the harm that he hath done in the holy thing, and shall add the fifth part thereto, and give it unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev 5:17 And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the LORD; though he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity.
Lev 5:18 And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist it not, and it shall be forgiven him.
Lev 5:19 It is a trespass offering: he hath certainly trespassed against the LORD.

And then more in Numbers:Num 15:25 And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their ignorance:
Num 15:26 And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; seeing all the people were in ignorance.
Num 15:27 And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.
Num 15:28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.
Num 15:29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

How about in Luke also......The servant was "ignorant"....

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will , and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
Luke 12:48 But he that knew not(his servants will) , and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

*It looks as if, ignorance is no excuse and is *apparently* not above the law! The passages in Leviticus show that even ignorance requires the shedding of blood for the forgiveness of sins committed that the people didn't even know they did.

[ November 10, 2002, 08:25 AM: Message edited by: Scott_Bushey ]

 

Scott, first of all, no one was going to bring a sacrifice to the Lord until he was finally made aware of the sin he had committed through ignorance. As long as you remain ignorant, how can you present a sacrifice? You don't even know you need one.

That is why Christ was also the sacrifice for sins done in ignorance. And I am quite sure that is needed by ALL of us!

And that is why it is not sin that sends anyone to hell, but disbelief.

And you know something? I have YET to find a child who does not almost automatically know there is a God and, if he or she hears about Jesus, doesn't accept that as the truth...

There is something else I have been considering lately: children do not do what they do out of any sense of right or wrong at all, but because they want to please mom or day or avoid punishment or be popular with friends. In fact, this seems to be the motivating factor for a good many teens, too!

I think God was right about that cutoff being about 20 years old. I think God was telling us the approximate age HE considers an age of accountibility in terms of spiritual matters. And I would prefer going with His opinion than the opinion of others.

 

I had this thought when I was reading through this, and am wondering what you all think - since Paul said "how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard," would it also be true that one could not disbelieve in him of whom they have not heard?? Disbelief is not merely not believing something because we've never heard of it, but rather it is an active rejection of believing something.

If an age of accountability is a true principle, certainly this would be much more Biblically accurate than thinking four or five year olds are already personally accountable before God.</font>[/QUOTE]Brother are you a breath of fresh air!

I hadn't thought of disbelief in those terms.

OK, relate that to Romans 1 and knowledge of the truth -- or that part of the truth that each man is going to be confronted with at some time, whenever and whatever it is. We can see that suppressing it, and it seems to be on a consistent basis in context, is what arouses God's fury.

So if you accept that part, what then? Suppose you don't suppress the truth you can discern, or you are confronted with, from creation itself...that is not enough to know Christ and His work, but only part of the character of God -- that there IS a Creator and that He is eternal and powerful.

What does a person do then?

OK, this is purely from me: if he hears the Gospel, I think the truth the man does know and has accepted would be part of the preparation inside him to know the truth of Jesus when he heard it. He would be more ready for the Gospel message. Thus missionaries and teachers and such.

But the man who has accepted the truth about God from creation but never hears the Gospel -- this is when I find I have to simply trust God. I know the Bible says He is not a respecter of persons, and I'm quite sure none of us can love another one of us more than God loves any of us! It was this sort of quandry that started me looking into the old mythologies and legends and the most ancient records we could find of anything.

The oldest of the Vedas recall one God and creation and the Promise. I was stunned. Then I read some books by missionaries: Peace Child, Bruchko, Salvation in the Killing Fields, One Bright Shining Path, Evidence Not Seen, Genesis and the Mystery Confucious Couldn't Solve.

They knew. The ancient languages. The ancient writings, the ancient cultures -- they knew. The story had started clear and then come down muddled, but they KNEW! They knew there was one Creator God. They knew man had done something horrid and we had all suffered as a result, and they knew that God had promised to fix things Himself. There had evidently been, in every tribe, in every culture, at every time, in some way or another, something of the ancient Promise to believe in. God had not abandon anyone. Our job was to tell them how God made it come true -- but the Promise they already knew. And there would have been a few at any given time who depended on this unknown God and His half-remembered Promise of help.

I most certainly don't have all the answers, but I know I can fully trust God to have loved each and every person He ever created and to have done what could be done for each one. And that is enough for me.

But in our culture, here and now, Jesus is known. The story is known. And people can harden against it or accept it. God loves each of us, too.

For me, the best way to say it is maybe that in my search for the truth of so much I have learned enough to trust more fully and never enough not to need to trust! But my heart is at rest where people of all cultures and times are concerned. God is faithful, and the Judge of the whole earth has always done right. Nor has the sense of 'right and wrong' or even of 'fair' that He has implanted within us been frustrated or confused in the process. It's a very, very joyous and peaceful feeling. That's not what I was after, but it's a terrific result anyway!

And I still know that when we all get to heaven, it would be really good to have practiced a lot of humility here because we are going to have been wrong in a lot of areas, I am sure. But inasmuch as what I have learned has helped me know and trust God more, how can that not be a source of peace and joy?

And worship and love and awe.....

About the possible age of accountability. I know we have to discipline our kids -- and that age of accountability in spiritual matters is a completely separate thing. From infancy the training must start, gently at first and sometimes a little fiercer later, depending on the child. And the reason that it works is because they want to please us, not because they really even care about right or wrong for the sake of right or wrong! It's 'make Mom happy' or 'don't get caught' etc. And the teen years are spaghetti-brain years. My sons all checked out to another planet somewhere around fourteen years old. They'd hear half a sentence and presume the other half. The were invincible and occasionally unbearable. They were shaking off childhood while still playing with toys and reaching for manhood while rebelling against authority. Keeping them from killing or even gently maiming themselves is a major goal for parents of teens!

So even when I hear from mine or anyone else's that they have 'accepted Christ' at fourteen or fifteen or whatever, I smile and say that is wonderful and think to myself "OK, let's wait ten years and see what they do when their brains are finished re-wiring."

It was a couple of years ago the Lord sort of hit me with that 20 year old mark repeated a number of times in the Torah. And it started me thinking.

It makes sense to me, too. I may be wrong -- obviously for the first time in my life... -- but it does make sense to me.

So those are my thoughts.

And they are still bubbling around inside the mudpots of my mind, so I'm not sure what God will show me next to cause me to think more in that direction or change directions or what. But I enjoy the thinking, and I enjoy the calmer chance to think about it with someone who is not attacking.

Thanks, RL.

 

Helen,
You seem to be saying almost that the responses of a young child to God are unreliable, that "rewiring" makes a teenager into a completely different person. I truly was aware of God from a very early age and was under conviction to follow Christ from the age of 7.
I became a Christian when I was eleven.
And this was following God, not trying to please my parents.

I have seen too many people become Christians as young children and grow in grace to dismiss it.
My eldest, for example, became a Christian when he was six. True, coming as a six-year-old is not like coming like an eighty-year-old, but I have seen consistent spiritual growth in him.
He is an older teen, now, soon to leave home for college.
A lot of times what may be lacking is discipleship, when we see kids seem to become Christians at ten, and then at 20 say they did not understand.

Karen

 

Hi Scott. You said; Harmony shows that all have sinned........All have fallen short of Gods glory; including the infant. All have fallen short of God’s glory, including the saved AFTER they are saved. If infants can go to hell because they fall short of God’s glory, then so too can the SAVED because they also fall short of God’s glory. It is the BIBLE (not “harmony”) that shows all have sinned and fall short of God’s glory (Rom. 3: 23).

You said; You forgot to mention the premise I posed in regards to "silence" in respect to woman and scripture. I thought it was a rhetorical question (you answered it after you asked). The Bible is not primarily written to men, nor is it silent concerning woman. There is no contrast with infants which are discussed as a “group” in the Bible with the many blessings they (and their parents) received from the LORD. The dynamic that exists between men and women is well documented in the Bible from Creation on out.

You said; “You have intentionally disregarded scriptural harmony to supplant your theory. No. I haven’t done that at all. Scriptural harmony, by definition, must be based upon what is actually in the Bible. Otherwise, it becomes “doctrines of men.” (Matt. 15: 9, Mark 7: 7).

You said, “You didn't make mention to the passage from Romans I presented. R 5:17-20 (see above)” I did. I agreed with it. See last paragraph of that post. If you have a specific question concerning it, I shall be pleased to try and answer.

You said; “They were "scheduled to be regenerated on acertain day, and were not actually saved until that time.” Scheduled? If you were correct, then a person who died BEFORE he met his “scheduled appointment” would die unsaved. Since Christ is slain from before the foundation of the world (Rev. 13: 8) he obviously had to be slain for SOMEONE at that same time. The Bible tells who that is and when it occurred (Eph. 1: 4). Jesus himself said “for many are called, but few are chosen” (Matt. 22: 14). The chosen are the ones in Eph. 1: 4 where it states plainly that this occurred from before the foundation of the world. “According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:” (Eph. 1: 4). The historical moment when a person “gets saved” by expressing faith outwardly is a wonderful moment in time, which signifies that salvation has ALREADY occurred. Outward expressions are an evidence that they were already saved from the before the foundation of the world. Outward appearances themselves can be deceiving - but GOD knows the heart (1 Sam. 16: 7).

You said: “prior to this day, they were (as Paul says of himself) "Children of wrath". No. Eph. 2: 3 does not say that. It says they were by NATURE the children of wrath. BIG difference. We still sin AFTER we are saved just as we did before we were saved. Paul very clearly said the same of himself AFTER he was saved (Rom. 7: 19). He continued to sin! It is not just “prior” as you said - it is also AFTTER. Thank you Scott.

latterrain77

[ November 12, 2002, 05:44 AM: Message edited by: latterrain77 ]

 

Hi rlvaughn & Helen. Thank you for your terrific thoughts. I appreciate your input as I had not previously considered a few of the points you raised. Like rlvaughn’s comment on “disbelief” and Helen’s beautiful (and true) description of children in action; - Helen said; children do not do what they do out of any sense of right or wrong at all, but because they want to please mom or day or avoid punishment… Thank you!

latterrain77

[ November 11, 2002, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: latterrain77 ]

 

Hi Karen, and thanks.

It's not that the responses are unreliable as a child, but they are not complete and they are not adult. I do remember when I was five and sent to Sunday School at a nearby church (so my parents could have some peace and quiet from us!), that God made perfect sense to me and I knew He was real and true. That was that. No problem for my young mind.

When I was around seven, and for several years, I would stare out the front window every Christmas eve, sure I would see the Christmas star if I looked hard enough. In a non-Christian family I was a believer.

But as a teenager I did my own thing. I was snotty, shy, scared, -- the whole works! And only as a teen can all those and more qualities get mixed up in the same person, I think!

But I considered myself a Christian.

Obedience to God? Oh, come on! I believed in Him and that was enough!

No, it wasn't. In my early twenties I lived with the guy I would later marry and start a family with. Hey, we were doing what seemed right to us -- so what about what others thought?

We got married in a church, of course. That was obviously the right thing to do...

And 18 months later I held my newborn in my arms. Not long after, in the middle of the night when I got up to him for one of those lovely quiet nursing times, I remember looking at him and thinking "I don't want him to grow up as confused as I have been."

And shortly after I asked God to take me completely if He still wanted me.

So yes, I believed as a little girl. But it wasn't enough. It was real, but it wasn't enough. However, I am sure now that it didn't have to be -- I was His anyway at that age!

My youngest daughter 'accepted' Jesus into her heart at least forty times by the time she was eight or nine. Her Sunday School, VBS, and Awana teachers would be so excited about it and she so loved the attention, that she just kept doing it! I remember toward the end when one more Sunday School teacher came rushing to me out in the parking lot after church to tell me my daughter had accepted Christ, all I could do was laugh and say, "Again?"

Remember that baby I held in my arms? He is 29 now. And he is a fine Christian young man of whom I am very proud. But through his teen years, even though he was a 'believer', I remember confronting him a number of times and saying, "Scott, your walk with the Lord is not what it should be, is it?" And he would honestly tell me "No," and ask me to pray for him! And I did, of course. (And he had given a remarkable testimony in church when he was 14, by the way!)

He was 22 when he came into the den one afternoon where I was working and told me "Mom, this morning in the shower I realized I'd never really given all of me to God. I want you to know I did that this morning."

And the change has been permanent and he is growing and maturing spiritually.

After having worked with kids for over thirty years now, both my own and in classrooms and in church, I can say without qualification that what happens as a teenager is not always indicative of the life decisions that get made in the twenties. I have seen some kids I was SO sure were solid Christians in their teens, and group leaders, and everything else, go wildly off the deep end in their twenties. And I have seen some stay the course, but recommit in their twenties. I have seen some who rebelled for years come to the Lord like a shot in their twenties.

And I cannot divorce what I have seen over and over again from the thought that God presented that age of twenty regarding who must die in the wilderness for their rebellion and who would be allowed into the Promised Land.

So while I may be wrong, all I can say is that it is making sense to me. It is not until there is a person unique and separate from the family he or she grew up in that the Lord and that person can have their own individual relationship. Before that, family and friends carry so much influence that one often does simply either what one is expected to do or what will please others. And sometimes 'others' might include a desire to please God. But I really do think that individual unique relationship a person can have with God cannot be really established until after the teen confusions. Like Jacob, I think we all have to wrestle with God for awhile, and when we are teens, we are too busy wrestling with everything else, including ourselves!

 

Helen,
Thanks for your additional comments. I see your points, but I just don't think it happens that way EVERY time. I know too many people, including me, who came to God quite early and quite different from how you describe.

Karen

 

Latterrain writes:
You said: “prior to this day, they were (as Paul says of himself) "Children of wrath". No. Eph. 2: 3 does not say that. It says they were by NATURE the children of wrath. BIG difference. We still sin AFTER we are saved just as we did before we were saved. Paul very clearly said the same of himself AFTER he was saved (Rom. 7: 19). He continued to sin! It is not just “prior” as you said - it is also AFTTER. Thank you Scott.

Scott responds:
From your viewpoint, based upon the way you understand election, Paul was always saved!
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins :
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins , hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

Scott continues:
In regards to John the Baptist, you state that he was regenerated before the foundation of the world.
But you contradict the scripures to support your unorthodox belief system. The scriptures state that John was "regenerated in the womb"; He may have been elect before the foundation, but he was regenerated in his mothers womb. This is no less than an event that is miraculous. Your theory seems to place men and things of man outside of time; God is outside of time, men are not.

I suppose you will say next that Pauls salvific Demascus road experience was insignificant and not really "salvific" or that the Baptism of Christ was not a seperate event also. God created life in 6 days; I believe they were 6/24 hr periods. It didn't happen all at one time. Gods word is supportive of events and timelines.

[ November 12, 2002, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: Scott_Bushey ]

 

Helen writes in regards to my posting of Lev 4:1-35:

Scott, first of all, no one was going to bring a sacrifice to the Lord until he was finally made aware of the sin he had committed through ignorance. As long as you remain ignorant, how can you present a sacrifice? You don't even know you need one.

Helen,
The point of this passage is that "sins of ignorance" required a sacrifice. Why would that be? I mean, where there is no law, there is no sin right? If a sin was committed by someone who wasn't even aware that they were sinning, they would be innocent-correct, based upon Rom 5:13?

Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

 

Hi Scott. You said, “From your viewpoint, based upon the way you understand election, Paul was always saved!” Not from my viewpoint - from the Bible’s viewpoint (Eph. 1: 4).

You said; “In regards to John the Baptist, you state that he was regenerated before the foundation of the world. But you contradict the scripures to support your unorthodox belief system. The scriptures state that John was "regenerated in the womb";” No. You are very much mistaken. The Bible in Matt. 3:1-3 clearly and positively stated that John was ALREADY known to be saved during the days of Isaiah – thousands of years BEFORE he was born in Elisabeth’s womb. Furthermore, the Bible does NOT say that John the Baptist was saved in the womb as you suggest. It says he “leaped” in his mother’s womb, which is of itself only evidence that he was ALREADY saved – which he was from before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1: 4) and as illustrated in Matt. 3:1-3.

You said, “But you contradict the scripures to support your unorthodox belief system.” Well, I respectfully disagree.

You said, “Your theory seems to place men and things of man outside of time; God is outside of time, men are not.” Well, in some respects GOD does very much operate within time. However, in the big picture you are correct that GOD is outside of time in eternity. For example, GOD alone does the work of Grace OUTSIDE of time, before the foundation of the world (Rev. 13: 8, Eph. 1: 4). If salvation itself is a result of “professions of faith” by men, then grace is not grace, it is works/grace. Professions of faith and belief are wonderful this is true! But of themselves they are NOT “salvic” (if I may use your word). Even the devils believe and tremble (James 2: 19, Matt. 7: 21-23).

You said, “I suppose you will say next that Pauls salvific Demascus road experience was insignificant and not really "salvific" or that the Baptism of Christ was not a seperate event also.” Quite obviously, Christ’s baptism was only an “outward sign” for our personal reflection. Otherwise it would mean that Christ NEEDED to be baptized (washed of sin), which is an impossible idea. I do not believe that Paul's Damascus road experience was insignificant (Eph. 1: 4).

You said, “God created life in 6 days; I believe they were 6/24 hr periods. It didn't happen all at one time.” First, to be clear, GOD did not create life in 6 literal days. He created the Universe in 6 literal 24 hour days and on the 7th day he rested (Gen. 2: 2). For example, those certain elements of creation, such as the sun, moon, and stars are NOT life (Gen. 1: 14-19). Furthermore, the picture of salvation in creation (day 1 of creation – separating “light” from “darkness”) occurred instantly (Gen. 1: 3). In addition, Gen. 1: 1 itself, the first verse of the Bible, also shows the dynamic of “heaven” (saved) and “earth” (unsaved).

You said, “Gods word is supportive of events and timelines.” I agree. And the timeliness of the topic we have been discussing is explicitly described in Eph. 1: 4. It is also way outside of the topic of this thread. To that end, I've enjoyed our dialogue and look forward to future ones with you on the Baptist Board. Thank you again Scott. I wish you all the best.

latterrain77

 

Latterrain writes:
Hi Scott. You said, “From your viewpoint, based upon the way you understand election, Paul was always saved!” Not from my viewpoint - from the Bible’s viewpoint (Eph. 1: 4).

Scott responds:
I believe you have confused two events and have made them one. For instance, Paul was regenerated on the road to Demascus. Prior to this he was killing Christians. One cannot support the idea that he was of Christ at that time; actually, this idea is ludicrous. This would mean that God was killing Christians, using Christians to kill His people. Election and salvation are two different seperate events. Scripture is clear.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins , hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ

Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Eph 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Latterrain writes in response to my proposal that John the Baptist WAS regenerated in the womb:

No. You are very much mistaken. The Bible in Matt. 3:1-3 clearly and positively stated that John was ALREADY known to be saved during the days of Isaiah – thousands of years BEFORE he was born in Elisabeth’s womb. Furthermore, the Bible does NOT say that John the Baptist was saved in the womb as you suggest. It says he “leaped” in his mother’s womb, which is of itself only evidence that he was ALREADY saved – which he was from before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1: 4) and as illustrated in Matt. 3:1-3.

Scott responds:
Luke 1:15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.
Here is an event that cannot be "lumped" together with the elective decree. It is OBVIOUSLY seperate and seperate for a reason.

In response to your position on the passage from Isaiah:
This is a prophesy. Prophesies are *proclamations* of movements of God. Generally, they are future events. In the Hebrew, NABA', meaning to predict. Websters defines prediction as: "To say in advance, foretell (A future event or events)".

Latterain writes in regards to my saying, "I suppose you will say next that Pauls salvific Demascus road experience was insignificant and not really "salvific" or that the Baptism of Christ was not a seperate event also."

Latterrain writes:
Quite obviously, Christ’s baptism was only an “outward sign” for our personal reflection.

Scott states:I disagree. Observe what Christ states that it was to "fulfill all righteousness".

Mat 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
Mat 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

[ November 15, 2002, 06:28 AM: Message edited by: Scott_Bushey ]

 

Hi Scott. Here are just a few brief points to your comments. You said, “Paul was regenerated on the road to Demascus. Prior to this he was killing Christians. One cannot support the idea that he was of Christ at that time; actually, this idea is ludicrous.” David, who killed MANY people including GOD’s righteous man Uriah the Hittite (2 Samuel 12: 9) was always saved regardless of this terrible sin. So it is with Paul who also killed. Moses killed the Egyptian (Exodus 2: 14), yet Moses too was always saved regardless of this terrible sin. So it is with Paul. Salvation is not dependent upon works, nor is it negated by sin (Rom. 7: 18-25).

You said, “…and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.” Luke 1: 15 shows that John the Baptist was ALREADY saved in the womb. Matt. 3: 1-3 showed that John’s saved condition was already accomplished during the days of Isaiah - thousands of years prior to his conception. Eph. 1: 4 say’s when this occurs (“before the foundation of the world"). The "behavior" exhibited by any saved person throughout their lives (good or bad) is “of the flesh” (we still sin). The Bible is clear; the flesh profits NOTHING, it is the SPIRIT that is made alive, “quickened" (John 6: 63).

You said, “I disagree. Observe what Christ states that it was to "fulfill all righteousness". You have ignored that part of the verse that says “suffer it be so now” (allow it to be). Jesus “allowed” it to happen so the Holy Ghost would be shown to men “dove descending” (Matt. 3: 16). Jesus did NOT need to have “his sins washed” because Jesus did not have any sins! The Lord even agreed with John’s assessment of this situation. This is why Jesus said, “allow it to be for now” anyway. Thank you Scott.

latterrain77

[ November 15, 2002, 07:10 AM: Message edited by: latterrain77 ]