Where did the idea of "Replacement Theology" come from?

You asked why the dispensationalists had such animosity towards replacement theology. I do because we are told that we are to bless Israel and we will be blessed. Jews are still the apple of His eyes.

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Again, holding this position is NOT anti-semitic. So, is the Bride of Christ secondary to the "mistress" Israel?

Rev. G

To Preach the Word,
I see someone already quoted the verse I was referring to which is Genesis 12:3. I believe this is still relevant to us. Especially us.
I agree that if anyone does not accept Jesus as Messiah they will go to hell. But, does that mean the Lord has changed His mind regarding the people of Israel? He chose them to bring forth the Messiah and He has a plan for them in the future that includes using 144,000 men to preach the gospel in the tribulation. Forgive me if I did not make myself clear. What I meant was, that satan knows that these men are Jews and they will preach Christ in the tribulation. Do you not think that he wants to kill them off?
Romans 11 tells us we are grafted in to them. Them being the original tree. We are grafted into them. I am not sure what your point was about this chapter.
Replacement theology teaches that God is finished with the nation of Israel. So, my point was that if Israel as a nation is finished then why should we protect them and stand up for them. That is why I feel it is dangerous and leads to anti-semitism. I am not saying that every one who believes in replacement theology is this way. It has been my experience however that some are.
Why would someone who believes that we are spiritual Israel bother with blessing the physical Jew or Israel?
And of course the most anti-semitic thing we can do is not share Christ with a Jew.

Originally posted by Headcoveredlady:
And of course the most anti-semitic thing we can do is not share Christ with a Jew.

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Amen. And also the most anti-Gentile thing we can do, too.

We must also, however, watch out for the flip side caused by an overemphasis on the current political nation of Israel, that being the danger of anti-Palestinianism. As Christians we are to be interested in the eternal well-being of all people, regardless of ethnicity or race. But I am confident that everyone in this forum is careful in this regard.

Ken

I don't have any problem with seeing and pointing to a spiritual kinship between Israel and the church. They both are a result of God's special call and they both require FAITH, what's the problem? "It is a reconsitituting of Israel in a way that makes it suitable for the ministry of the new covenant. From this point on, it is not that the church takes the place of Israel. but that a renewed Israel of God is being formed by the shaping of the church" Quoted from the book The Israel of God by O. Palmer Robertson. I couldn't agree more.

HeadCoveredLady, you are EXACTLY right on!

http://www.vicmord.com/

Pray for the peace of Jerusalem.

Shalom.

http://www.shalom-peace.com/Praypeace.html

http://www.christianity.com/foi

We must also, however, watch out for the flip side caused by an overemphasis on the current political nation of Israel, that being the danger of anti-Palestinianism. As Christians we are to be interested in the eternal well-being of all people, regardless of ethnicity or race. But I am confident that everyone in this forum is careful in this regard.

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Fantastic point, Ken!

Originally posted by Rev. G:
It is not an attempt to make it "fit the system." Rather, it is understanding the OT in light of the NT. Isn't that why Peter writes as he does? Why Paul writes as he does? Why John writes as he does?

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Peter, Paul, and John demonstrably did not do as you do. They believed that Israel would be restored to the land and the NC promises would pertain to Israel. Understanding the OT in light the NT is a catchwrod phrase that is meaningless, I believe. It simply cannot be sustained in your view unless the OT is to be flatly denied. God's promises are clear; to hold your position is to call those promises into question. I do not say that to be inflammatory about it or to be derogatory. i know you believe in the promises of God. My point is that when we embark on the path of saying "That really doesn't mean what it says" we have embarked on a dangerous path. Scripture should not be treated in such a way. I understand the OT in light of the NT. I simply do not redefine the meaning of the OT in favor of a system that refuses to let the OT say what it does.

I'm not sure I understand you here, brother. What do you mean that there is no distinction in the church, and yet there is always a distinction between the Jews (Israel) and the Church?

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The distinction is commonly referred to as a distinction of origin, purpose, and destiny. In the church, Jew and Gentile are on equal footing and equal standing (Gal 3:26). With regards to God's promises to Israel in teh OT, the church has not replaced Israel.

What do you mean that you disagree that it is recent? You can't find it before the 19th century! The "classical" / "historical" pre-mill. position was found in the Early Church, but not the "dispensational" position. Yes, you are correct, some areas of theology have been studied in "stages," however, if you pass 1800 years before coming to a "novel" position, then it is suspect at best.

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It is the position of the NT authors. Therefore, it is not recent. There are passages in the NT that simply make little if any sense apart from the pretrib position. That is why I say it is the position of the NT authors.

I appreciate your comments here. By the way, what is your millennial position?

Friend, we are at an impasse. Please know that I respect the reason why you are taking the stand you are, and I do not believe it is a reason to break fellowship. I hope you are agreed.

I am an Historical Premillennialist (with a leaning towards Amillennialism).

Rev. G

Headcoveredlady, the present day Jews are called our enemies. God will still use a future generation that will embrace his Son. Since we know this, it really doesn't matter if the USA is for or against Israel. God will keep the Jews anyway, right? That doesn't mean that we shouldn't support Israel.

Freedom is the right of all sentient beings. I advocate freedom for everyone. I am a Baptist. However, some (even on this board) misuse God's promise to Abraham (and his seed - singular - Jesus Christ - salvation) to mean something it doesn't. These same people are American patriotic zealots and political activists who happen to be Christian.

God's promise to Abraham was that those who bless him would be blessed. Who is the singular seed of Abraham? Christ. So to bless Abraham is to bless Christ. The same is true in the reverse with cursing. Do you understand what I am saying now?

Btw, it always amazes me to see pretrib people so doggone politically active. The two don't mix well.

Like my tolerance for the "moral majority", I am out.

Btw, it always amazes me to see pretrib people so doggone politically active. The two don't mix well.

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If the world is on a greased track to hell, and the Anti-Christ and the coming of the one world government are a certainty, then why are we so busy in our political activities fighting against the coming of the Anti-Christ and the one world government? Just curious.

Rev. G

Rev. G, I know you are not pretrib, but that is exactly my point.

Actually, wouldn't you agree with that assessment since you are premill?

As a pretrib Baptist, I support conservative politics and think that life-chains and such are great. I just don't get disappointed when evil keeps triumphing. I know that God has appointed such events because evil will run its course and then He will completely eradicate it once and for all.

Originally posted by Rev. G:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Btw, it always amazes me to see pretrib people so doggone politically active. The two don't mix well.

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If the world is on a greased track to hell, and the Anti-Christ and the coming of the one world government are a certainty, then why are we so busy in our political activities fighting against the coming of the Anti-Christ and the one world government? Just curious.</font>[/QUOTE]While I am not politically active outside of voting, the reason why it is consistent to be pretrib and politically active is because we will live here until Christ returns.

PReach the Word,
Actually my opinion of standing up for Israel is represented right here in this conversation. I lean more towards the non-resistant stand of the old time Anabaptists.

HCL

The modern Israeli state is apostate. They are totally corrupt and antiChrist. They crucified their Savior and have yet to repent of it. They only whine about their own persecution. The Law (Deuteronomy) says that if they would not walk pleasing to God, they would be ruled by Gentiles. God could totally wipe them out and bring the Jews back together at a later time.

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Rev. G:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Btw, it always amazes me to see pretrib people so doggone politically active. The two don't mix well.

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If the world is on a greased track to hell, and the Anti-Christ and the coming of the one world government are a certainty, then why are we so busy in our political activities fighting against the coming of the Anti-Christ and the one world government? Just curious.</font>[/QUOTE]While I am not politically active outside of voting, the reason why it is consistent to be pretrib and politically active is because we will live here until Christ returns.</font>[/QUOTE]Amen, Bro. Larry. We are to occupy until He comes.

Originally posted by Preach the Word:
The modern Israeli state is apostate. They are totally corrupt and antiChrist. They crucified their Savior and have yet to repent of it. They only whine about their own persecution. The Law (Deuteronomy) says that if they would not walk pleasing to God, they would be ruled by Gentiles. God could totally wipe them out and bring the Jews back together at a later time.

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PTW, this sure sounds like an anti-Semitic post to me.

The Jews didn't crucify the Savior. Romans actually physically nailed Him to the cross. But He willingly gave His life. He could have called the hosts of heaven, have you forgotten? The Jews didn't crucify the Savior. I did. You did. We all did. Our sins nailed Him to the Cross.

Yes, God promised to wipe out the nation of Israel so they would be ruled by Gentiles. But you didn't finish reading the passage in Deuteronomy. He also promised they would return back to the Land of Promise. That began happening in 1948. He also said there would always be a remnant.

Zech 2:[8] For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.

I am God Almighty; walk before Me, and be blameless. And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, and I will multiply you exceedingly. "And Abram fell on his face, and God talked with him saying, "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, and you shall be the father of a multitude of nations. No longer shall your name be called Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I will make you the father of a multitude of nations. And I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come forth from you. And I [YHWH] will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you." (Genesis 17:1-7)

And God said, Sarah, thy wife, shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation. But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year (Gen. 17:19-21).

"In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the [little] river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates"
(Gen. 15:18).

An important element in establishing the possession of the land by ancient Israel is Jerusalem. After David had ruled from Hebron for seven and a half years, he moved the capital city of the Jewish state to Jerusalem. A key factor in the move was his purchase of the Temple Mount from one Araunah, the Jebusite.

Incidentally, Israel and the Jewish people have never since offered that sacred site for sale. Although it is claimed by the Muslims today, it must still be regarded as an area titled to Israel from a time well before Islam came into existence.


Thus saith the Lord, who giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, who divideth the sea when its waves roar; The Lord of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me forever. Thus saith the Lord, If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord (Jer. 31:35-37).

It would do us well to remember that this statement is an against-all-odds declaration. God alone could be deemed competent to cause it to come to pass.

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And the rest of the passage in Deuteronomy is thus:

That then the Lord thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations where the Lord thy God hath scattered thee.…And the Lord thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers (Dt. 30:3, 5).

The undeniable fact we live with every day is that Israel is, after all of these centuries, back home—just as the Bible said it would be.

We must not neglect—for it would be at our peril—a word from Scripture that has been scrupulously observed by many Western nations, especially the United States of America.

And I will make of thee [Abraham] a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing. And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed (Gen. 12:2-3).

We, as Americans, can all attest to and be thankful for this divinely bestowed legacy.


Israel’s history is relevant to people the world over, Jew and Gentile alike, and prompts them to respond in faith to the Holy One of Israel. God issues the world a challenge in Isaiah 41:21–23:

Produce your cause, saith the Lord; bring forth your strong reasons, saith the King of Jacob. Let them bring them forth, and show us what shall happen; let them show the former things, what they are, that we may consider them, and know the latter end of them; or declare us things to come. Show the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods; yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.

The history of the Jewish people establishes the God of the Bible as the only One who has met this challenge to perfection. No other entity man has ever worshiped, including Allah, Buddha, or whomever, has ever been able to do these things. The God of Israel and the Bible is indisputably the one true God of this universe.

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http://www.foigm.org/

PTW, you can call Israel apostate if you choose. But God is the God of the Covenant to Israel. It is a Covenant that is unconditional. It will not be broken.

It is because of Israel we have Salvation. It is because of Jesus, the Lion of the tribe of JUDAH, we have Salvation. It is because of the Israelite rejection of the Messiah that you and I are able to be partakers of Salvation, to the Jew first...and then, do we have the privilege to be grafted in. But that's just it. We as Believers are GRAFTED in. Jesus was a Jew from the tribe of Judah. Jesus is our Brother since we are joint heirs. We are adopted, too. So doesn't that make you and me, Jews?

It is because of the Nation of Israel that we have our Old Testament Scriptures and all the wealth & Promises contained therein. The first Christian church was made up of Israelites, too. The Apostles were all Jews, I do believe.

It is because of Israel and America's care for and protection of Jewish people and for spreading the Gospel throughout the World that America has been blessed in spite of our many sins.

You have forgotten something else, too. There are a great many born-again Christians, brothers & sisters in Christ, who live in Israel. And not all of them are Jews. Some are Palestinians.

I will make no apology: I love the land of Israel and her people and pray for the peace of Jerusalem. My Saviour walked the streets and hills where suicide bombers with AK-47s now roam.

Shalom.

Regarding the New Covenant it is made with Israel and ministered to the church.

What does that mean? If a covenant is made with one party, it cannot be fulfilled with a different party without breaking teh covenant.

Sheeagle said:

PTW, this sure sounds like an anti-Semitic post to me.

PtW says:

So. It isn't. Keep reading.

Sheeagle said:

The Jews didn't crucify the Savior. Romans actually physically nailed Him to the cross. But He willingly gave His life. He could have called the hosts of heaven, have you forgotten? The Jews didn't crucify the Savior. I did. You did. We all did. Our sins nailed Him to the Cross.

PtW says:

You are only partially right. Consider the Apostles Peter and Paul:

Acts 2: 22-23

Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know. Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death.

Peter disagreed with your assessment of what happened. He laid the blame at the feet of who? MEN OF ISRAEL. You cannot mistake or misunderstand his words.

Romans 11:28

Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake.

Did you read that? Paul says that according to the gospel, they are our enemies. That doesn't sound like the overzealous support for them that some seem to be saying.

Romans 11:8

"God has given them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear, to this very day."

So, God has given the apple of his eye a spirit of stupor so that they cannot see and ears that cannot hear. Hmmmm…

Pastor Larry, how do you understand Jer 31:31 & Heb 8:8-13?