The Secret Coming/Second Coming

What is wrong with the belief of the secret Premillenial Rapture that is seperate from the actual Second Coming? Is the Left Behind series a realistic (albeit hyper-dramatic) presentation of "living a decade in eschatology."

I would be interested to hear what surprises we are in for if we believe in the secret Premillenial Rapture.

who says there is a first "rapture"?

Why not just the 2nd coming?

Cheers,

Jim

I don't see a secret rapture in scripture. Too many trumps and shouts, every eye shall see, etc. to keep it a secret.

I don't believe it will be secret. I do, however, believe in a premillenial rapture of the Bride of Christ. Then the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. After the Bema Seat Judgment for Believers. Then the Second Coming of Jesus Christ to Earth to rule and reign for 1000 years from the Throne of David in Jerusalem. That the Temple of Solomon (3rd Temple) will be rebuilt. And this will happen before the World is destroyed by Fire and God creates a New Heaven and New Earth and after the Great White Throne Judgment of the Unsaved.

But I don't believe the Rapture will be secret. There will, however, be a great delusion for those who are left behind to live on this earth...like millions of people just got taken away by aliens or something. And the Anti-Christ and False Prophet will be in power. And there will be a Great Tribulation. All this will be occurring while the Marriage Supper of the Lamb is going on in Heaven.

But the New Heaven and New Earth are at least 1007 years from now.

Listening for the sweet trumpet sound!

No secret rapture is taught in the Bible. Nor is there taught there a second and third coming of Christ. He came the first time to live and die for His people and He will come the second time to wrap up history on this planet and to bring His people into His presence forever and to punish those who have rejected Him.

Ken

[ October 07, 2002, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

Amen Ken Hamilton!!
As far as I can tell, we are something like 95% through "The Tribulation." Instead of looking for a Pre-trib rapture, we need to be preparing for Christ's return.

PP

Originally posted by Peculiar person:
Amen Ken Hamilton!!
As far as I can tell, we are something like 95% through "The Tribulation." Instead of looking for a Pre-trib rapture, we need to be preparing for Christ's return.

PP

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Really? 95%? When did 1/3 of the world get destroyed? Has the moon turned to blood? Have the two witnesses been slain in the streets of Jerusalem and been raised back to life while the world exchanges gifts? Where are the 144,000? When was Solomon's third temple built and sacrifices begun? Who is the Anti-Christ? Who is the False Prophet? Where is the One World Government? Did Babylon get destroyed yet? Do you have the mark 666? (I don't.) Haven't seen people beheaded for not taking the mark yet, either. And right now Megiddo is a plain with a bunch of archeological digs going on.

Perhaps I missed all this since I don't remember any of it happening yet. I haven't been diagnosed with senile dementia as of yet, so that can't be the case. Besides, I'm still here. I won't be when most of this (if not all of it) happens.

The first coming was when Jesus came born of a virgin. The second coming to EARTH is when His feet touch the Mount of Olives and splits it in two. The rapture takes place when the dead in Christ rise first and I rise to meet Him in the air. The rapture and Second Coming are not one and the same.

At the university I attended, we Bible students were shown many charts and graphs attempting to simplify eschatology. My difficulty with all the interpretations lies in the way they mesh the sources: Daniel; Most other OT prophets; Jesus; Paul to the Thessalonians; The Revelation.

The implications of each theory beget further problems. For instance, to have a Secret&Second Coming, I notice that we must necessarily have a Bema&Great White Judgement seperately. Where does the physical seperation that is so descriptively chronicled in Scripture go? The goats from the sheep, the wheat from the chaff, the godly from the wicked. Also, you must take the strong delusions out of context.

But if you reject the pre-trib view then where do you put, for instance, the Millenium? There are a number of large pieces out of place either way.

I appreciate all your responses so far.

We are in the Millennium now

Originally posted by go2church:
We are in the Millennium now

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In keeping with SheEagle's excellent response earlier in this thread may I ask if we are in the millennium now, where is the peace we were promised (Isa 2:4; 9:4-7: 11:6-9; 32:17-18; 33:5-6; 54:13; 55:12; 60:18; 65:25; 66:12)? Where is the fullness of joy (Isa 9:3-4; 12:3-6; 14:7-8; 25:8-9; 30:39 etc.) Where is the spirit of holiness (Isa 1:26-27; 4:3-4; 29:18-23; 31:6-7; 35:8-9; 52:1 etc.)? Where is the full manifestation of the glory of God (Isa 4:2; 24:23; 35:2; 40:5; 60:1-9)? Where is the comfort to every need (Isa 12:1-2; 29:22-23; 40:1-2; 49:13 etc.)? Where is the justice in this millennial world we apparently live in (Isa 9:7; 11:5; 32:16; 42:1-4; 65:21-23)? Where are those who have complete knowledge (Isa 11:1-2 & 9; Isa 41:19-20; 54:13)?

At what time was the curse removed? In Ireland the animal kingdom is still carnivorous (Isa 11:6-9; 35:9; 65:25). Has sickness been removed (Isa 33:24)? Have those with deformity and disability been healed (Isa 29:17-19; 35:3-6; 61:1-2)?

If the answer to these questions is "No" then we are living in a rather strange "millennium."

Sheeagle--hit the nail right on the head. As the church is raptured/resurrected up--in that twinklin' of an eye--simutaniously--strong delusion will be sent down by God. I don't see as to how it can be a secret rapture--as much as I can see a deluded truth. Folks left will "believe the lie!" They will believe the Anti-christ--no matter how much of a whopper of a lie he tells--it will be believable to the sinners left. Folks today already are suckers at falling for religious deluded truths!!

Your friend,
Blackbird

I believe that LaHaye and company paint a picture of "easy believe-ism" in their books--as soon as those left have figured the puzzle out--they receive the truth from Christ. Nothing can be farther from the truth. Don't fall for a fictional book to give you the story of the real thing, folks! Don't let it replace the truth from the word of scripture!

Lahaye's Left Behind series should be left behind when determining one’s theology.

It has a number of serious flaws, not least of all the easy believism element mentioned in the previous contribution. Instead of being deluded, large numbers of left-behind loved ones get saved after the rapture. The idea of a resistance army to oppose antichrist is extra Biblical. In one volume Christians are seen praying to the dead, and in another God is said to have conceded control of the weather to Satan. These are obvious errors and it seems in the greedy demand for a quick buck Lahaye & Jenkins have been forced into them.

Real theology comes from the Word of God and not works of fiction. Will there be a secret rapture? It will be as secret as Christ's ascension - a secret to the world, but no secret to the church.

...Rapture that is seperate from the actual Second Coming?...

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I believe all of the following passages speak of the same coming and the same rapture:

"I will come again, and receive you unto myself" (John 14:3).

"The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him" (2 Thessalonians 2:1).

"The Son of man coming in the clouds... with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect" (Matthew 24:30-31).

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord... with the trump of God... shall be caught up together" (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

"They that are Christ's at his coming... at the last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:23, 52).

I believe the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture would require that the 2nd coming be a 3rd coming (Hebrews 9:28), that the last trumpet be the 9th from last (1 Corinthians 15:52; Revelation 8:6; Matthew 24:31), and that the 1st resurrection be the 2nd (Revelation 20:4-6), so that it would not really make sense of scripture.

...the Marriage Supper of the Lamb...

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Note that the Bible doesn't show the marriage of the church or the marriage supper happening before or during the tribulation, or in heaven; it doesn't announce the marriage and supper until the 2nd coming, immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-9, 14). "The bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage" (Matthew 25:10). I don't believe the Bible teaches a 3rd coming.

After the tribulation, I believe the rapture will gather us into the clouds to be married (Revelation 19:7) before Armageddon. The supper will be on the earth after Armageddon (Revelation 19:9, 17; Isaiah 25:5-9).

Note that the supper on the earth in Isaiah 25:5-9 is spoken of in connection with the same coming in which Jesus "will swallow up death in victory" (Isaiah 25:8); "Then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory" (1 Corinthians 15:54).

In the pre-trib view, why isn't the Lamb at the marriage of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7) or the supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:9) at any time we see him during the tribulation (Revelation 5:6-13; Revelation 6:1; Revelation 7:9-17; Revelation 14:1-4)?

...the Bema Seat Judgment for Believers...

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Note that the Bible doesn't show the judging or rewarding of any part of the church before or during the tribulation, or in heaven.

Note that the time to reward the saints doesn't come until after the 7th trumpet has sounded (Revelation 11:15, 18); we will be judged and rewarded at the 2nd coming: "Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come" (1 Corinthians 4:5); "I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing" (2 Timothy 4:1); "Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be" (Revelation 22:12).

After the tribulation, I believe the rapture will gather us into the clouds to be judged before Armageddon: "Then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven" (Mark 13:26-27); "He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Gather my saints together unto me" (Psalm 50:4-5); "The Lord shall judge his people" (Hebrews 10:30).

...The rapture takes place when the dead in Christ rise first and I rise to meet Him in the air...

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I believe that we will be caught up to meet Jesus coming "in the clouds" on his way down to set his feet on the earth.

Because 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 shows Jesus "coming," but doesn't show him landing on the earth, some believe it refers to a part-way coming of Jesus whereby he comes down only as far as the clouds and then returns to heaven. But note that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 don't show Jesus landing on the earth either. Do some then believe that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 are also not the 2nd coming?

Note that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 doesn't show Jesus returning to heaven. Acts 1:11 says Jesus will "come" just as he left: he won't come only as far as the clouds and then return to heaven again, just as he didn't leave only as far as the clouds and then return to earth again. He went from the Mount of Olives to the clouds to heaven, he will come from heaven to the clouds to the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). There's no 3rd coming of Jesus.

Unanswered so far:

How can Jesus come back unexpectedly if Bible-believing Christians who are alive at the time of the Abomination can count 3-1/2 years ahead to the Second Coming?

Secret Rapture is not a secret - the "theif in the night" refers to timing, not method. It is not a "Coming" either, but a gathering. Is this reasonable?

If Christ is coming WITH his saints, will we be raptured only to turn right around and come back to earth with Christ? If you believe that the rapture occurs at the 2nd coming, it would seem that way.

Why does anyone claim that we are living in the Tribulation or the Millenium? I see no proof for that, and would just as seriously read a claim that we are presently living a Lord of the Rings' fantasy world.

Where does the Scripture maintain that we will miss the Tribulation? Would Matt. 24 indicate that we are being instructed on the Tribulation? Does this refer to the Tribulation or is it a picture of Rome's rampage of Jerusalem in A.D.70?

( Not that I'm too concerned by either view, since God has promised to take care of us in any situation. Even if we are 'spoiled in Western Civ.')

Is the Left Behind series a realistic (albeit hyper-dramatic) presentation of "living a decade in eschatology."

Left Behind is fiction. It uses biblical references, but Christians who try think it might actually happen like that are fooling themselves.

Originally posted by JonHenry:
Unanswered so far:
How can Jesus come back unexpectedly if Bible-believing Christians who are alive at the time of the Abomination can count 3-1/2 years ahead to the Second Coming?

Secret Rapture is not a secret - the "theif in the night" refers to timing, not method. It is not a "Coming" either, but a gathering. Is this reasonable?

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To answer both questions at once: why assume that his coming will at that time be unexpected for saints? 1 Thess 5:2-6 says he will come as a thief in the night, unexpectedly and bringing destruction to those not watching. But verses 4 says that we "are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief". It won't be unexpected for the saints. In fact, Christ tells us when he comes like a thief: at Rev 16:15, at armageddon.

If Christ is coming WITH his saints, will we be raptured only to turn right around and come back to earth with Christ? If you believe that the rapture occurs at the 2nd coming, it would seem that way.

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Yes, this is correct. It is a gathering of saints, just as you previously mentioned.

Warm Christian greetings!

A board member stated that we are in the millenium now. In Revelation 20 v 3 we are told that during the millenium the Devil "would deceive the nations no more". If we are in the millenium now may I ask who is deceiving the nations?

Kind regards

Robert J Hutton

Here we go again.

When Jesus literally walked on the earth this was the first coming. According to Paul Jesus will not touch the Earth when the Rapture takes place so technically this is not the second coming since Jesus will not plant his feet on the Earth.

To me saying the rapture is going to take place as Jesus descends to Earth is ridiculous to me because Revelation says we will be coming behind him on White horses so when we go up I guess this means we will suddenly don white robes and jump on the horses and be able to catch up with Jesus.

The reason it is called a secret because the world won't be expecting it and because we don't have a clue when it will happen. Jesus made it very clear that no one will no the hour.

Jesus' teaching his disciples in Matthew etc was directed to the Jewish people not the church.
It seems like so many Christians forget that even though the Jews are not now God's wife she will be restored to her former place in the end.

Again the Tribulation is a judgement period. It is a time that God will pour out his wrath on the Earth. Is God going to pour out his wrath on the church? No. Will souls be saved during the tribulation. Yes. The Bible says they will be saved. They may have to give their head to the cause but they will be saved. It talks about those who came through great Tribulation as martyrs.

Originally posted by hrhema:
Here we go again.

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Yes indeed.

When Jesus literally walked on the earth this was the first coming. According to Paul Jesus will not touch the Earth when the Rapture takes place so technically this is not the second coming since Jesus will not plant his feet on the Earth.

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Where does Paul say "not"? Not mentioning something (because that is not the point of the passage) is not the same thing as denying it.

To me saying the rapture is going to take place as Jesus descends to Earth is ridiculous to me because Revelation says we will be coming behind him on White horses so when we go up I guess this means we will suddenly don white robes and jump on the horses and be able to catch up with Jesus.

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There are millions of saints in heaven *right now*. Do you think only the "raptured" are portrayed in Rev 19?

The reason it is called a secret because the world won't be expecting it and because we don't have a clue when it will happen. Jesus made it very clear that no one will no the hour.

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No, he made it clear that no one *knows* the hour. And we still won't know the "hour", but we'll have a pretty good idea. Rev 16:15 is at Armageddon.

Jesus' teaching his disciples in Matthew etc was directed to the Jewish people not the church.
It seems like so many Christians forget that even though the Jews are not now God's wife she will be restored to her former place in the end.

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Interesting, because Christ's answer in Matt 24 was to the question of the *apostles*. Are they not part of the church??? What other parts of the gospels can we ignore?

Again the Tribulation is a judgement period. It is a time that God will pour out his wrath on the Earth. Is God going to pour out his wrath on the church? No.

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It is a false assumption that the "trib" = "wrath". "wrath" is not even mentioned until the 6th seal, when the sun and moon are darkened. Matt 24:29 says this event is "immediately after the tribulation".

Will souls be saved during the tribulation. Yes. The Bible says they will be saved. They may have to give their head to the cause but they will be saved. It talks about those who came through great Tribulation as martyrs.

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Are *they* appointed to wrath, or to receive salvation?

Originally posted by Robert J Hutton:

A board member stated that we are in the millenium now. In Revelation 20 v 3 we are told that during the millenium the Devil "would deceive the nations no more". If we are in the millenium now may I ask who is deceiving the nations?

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Satan is not the only one who can deceive.

About the nations, have you ever noticed that at the beginning of the gospels, Satan controlled them (and offered them to Christ at the temptation after his baptism), but at the end of the gospels, Christ says "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations..." Looks to me like Satan lost his control over the nations.