The Secret Coming/Second Coming

The Rapture of the Bride of Christ (the Church)

I Thes. 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Note, We meet Him in the AIR, are caught up into the clouds. His feet do not touch earth.

[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Note in first chapters of Revelation, the description of the Churches. After the description of the Churches is a Trumpet!

Rev.4
[1] After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
[2] And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Who is on the Throne? Jesus.

Rev. 5:
[1] And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

[2] And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

[3] And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.

[4] And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.

[5] And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

[6] And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the
earth.

[7] And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.

[8] And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

[9] And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Redeemed to God - That's the Church, the Bride!

[10] And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Future promise that we shall reign on the Earth.

NOTE: The Tribulation hasn't happened yet!

Following Chapters in Revelation describe the Great Tribulation, Time of Woe, what is going on in Earth. Simultaneously, what is going on in Heaven is described in Chapter 19:

Note Chapter 19:
Rev. 19:[5] And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

[6] And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

[7] Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

[8] And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

[9] And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

[10] And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Now, Jesus is getting ready for the Second Coming to Earth - to defeat Satan, the Anti-Christ, the False Prophet and then will set up His Kingdom, ruling from the throne in Jerusalem, and binding up Satan for 1000 years (known as the Millenium).

[11] And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

[12] His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

[13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.


NOTE: This is Jesus.!

[14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

NOTE: The armies are His Bride, clothed in the same fine linen as previously described!

[15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

[16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

NOTE: This is JESUS coming back to Rule with a Rod of Iron for 1000 years.

[17] And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

[18] That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

[19] And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

[20] And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

[21] And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

This is the END of the Tribulation.

Rev.20
[1] And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

NOTE: This 1000 years is the Millenium.

[3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

[4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Note: Those beheaded did not receive the mark during the Great Tribulation - they were Saved during the Tribulation - DIFFERENT from the Bride of Christ! The Marriage SUpper already took place.

 

1 Thess 4 does not say his feet do not touch the earth, it doesn't say anything about his feet at all. If this disproves posttrib because it doesn't say he comes to earth, then it also disproves pretrib because it doesn't say he returns to heaven.

But what is the comfort? Verse 13 frames the context, that they should not be without hope of seeing their departed loved ones again, as others are without hope. Christ is coming back, and he's bringing them with him! (v14) Nothing is mentioned about timing.

John heard a voice, that was "as it were of a trumpet talking with me". This is a comparison of the voice to a trumpet, it is not a trumpet.

Amen. And he will stay there until his enemies be made his footstool (Heb 10:12-13)

Christ redeemed OT saints too (Gal 4:4-5, Luke 1:68-69, 1 Cor 10:4)

Yes, we will. I think everyone believes that.

Interesting that the word "saints" is used here, as it is throughout Revelation, instead of "church".

Too tired to comment on the rest, maybe later.

Brian

 

SheEagle, your posts are so long that I often skip parts of them. To make them shorter, try just posting the scripture reference instead of posting the scriptures themselves, I sure we all have a bible.

 

o.k.; do you need scratch paper to show your math?

What about the time of "Jacob's Trouble?"

God Bless

Bro. Dallas

 

Note the "if" in the following verse: "IF therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" (Revelation 3:3). Paul confirms that if we watch for that day it will not overtake us as a thief: "Yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night... But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief... let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch" (1 Thessalonians 5:2, 4, 6).

I believe the rapture is a coming:

"I will come again" (John 14:3).

"The coming of our Lord" (2 Thessalonians 2:1).

"The Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:30).

"The coming of the Lord" (1 Thessalonians 4:15).

"They that are Christ's at his coming" (1 Corinthians 15:23).

I don't believe that the scriptures teach a 3rd coming.

Our being caught up into the clouds to meet Jesus' at his coming and then returning back to the earth with him will be similar to the people coming out of Jerusalem to meet Jesus and then returning back to the city with him (John 12:12-13) or the Roman Christians coming out of Rome to meet Paul and returning back to the city with him (Acts 28:15-16).

I believe that just as planes go up, then back down, for good purpose, so the rapture will serve a good purpose. We will have been gathered from all around the globe into one place in the clouds above Jerusalem so that we all might descend together with the Lord to Jerusalem. As a brother said, "God doesn't want to wait for his people to WALK to Jerusalem from all over the world."

I believe that we will be caught up to meet Jesus coming "in the clouds" on his way down to set his feet on the earth.

"The Son of man coming in the clouds...
with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they shall gather together his elect"
(Matthew 24:30-31).

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord...
with the trump of God...
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord"
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

I don't believe that the scriptures teach two different comings "in the clouds,"
or two different "last" trumps (1 Corinthians 15:52),
or two different raptures.

Because 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 shows Jesus "coming," but doesn't show him landing on the earth, some believe it refers to a part-way coming of Jesus whereby he comes down only as far as the clouds and then returns to heaven. But note that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 don't show Jesus landing on the earth either. Do some then believe that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 are also not the 2nd coming?

Note that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 doesn't show Jesus returning to heaven. Acts 1:11 says Jesus will "come" just as he left: he won't come only as far as the clouds and then return to heaven again, just as he didn't leave only as far as the clouds and then return to earth again. He went from the Mount of Olives to the clouds to heaven, he will come from heaven to the clouds to the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). There's no 3rd coming of Jesus.

I believe the purpose of the rapture is to gather the resurrected dead and the transformed living (1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) all together in the sky with Jesus so that we can be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, Mark 13:27) and married (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds, before Armageddon.

This is why the wedding's consummation isn't announced until immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-14). I believe that after we've been judged and married in the clouds, we'll all get on our white horses, the clouds will part, "heaven" will be "opened" (Revelation 19:11), we'll all descend from the clouds with Jesus (Revelation 19:11-14), Jesus will smite the nations (Revelation 19:15) gathered at Armageddon (Revelation 16:14-16) to fight him (Revelation 19:19), he will defeat them completely (Revelation 19:20) and then land on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-4), after which we will have the supper (Revelation 19:9, 17; Isaiah 25:5-9).

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:36-37).

I believe that in Matthew 24:36-37 Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as when he said "immediately after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:29-30). I don't believe that Jesus taught a 3rd coming. Note that Jesus is speaking to the same believers, the same "ye," in Matthew 24:15 that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:42.

Note that Jesus didn't say "no one will know the day" (future tense) but "no one knows the day" (present tense in translation, perfect tense in Greek).

Note the exact correlation of the phrase and tense of "knoweth no man" in Matthew 24:36 and 1 Corinthians 2:11-12: "Even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God." See also: "When he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth... and he will shew you things to come" (John 16:13).

Jesus said his coming would be "as the days of Noah were" (Matthew 24:36-37). God told Noah when the flood would come before it came: "For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights" (Genesis 7:4). He told him because: "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7).

Before the 2nd coming, I believe those of us alive and still faithful at the abomination of desolation will know that we'll have to wait 1,335 days until Jesus comes: "From the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days" (Daniel 12:11-12).

In the pre-trib view, isn't Matthew 24:36-44 spoken to us Christians, whether Jew or Gentile? Note that Jesus is speaking to the same believers, the same "ye," in Matthew 24:15 that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:42.

Note that we can be in the tribulation without being appointed to God's wrath, for during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until near the end of the tribulation, after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 15:1; Revelation 16), and none of the 7 vials are poured out on those of us who have obtained salvation; I believe we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (Daniel 12:11-12), which is the day I believe Jesus will come back (Revelation 19).

I think it's important to make this distinction because many people -- including many Christians -- are going to be blaming God for everything bad that happens to them in the tribulation; they're going to be saying that God is the one causing all of their suffering, when in reality it will be Satan, evil men, and natural disasters that are causing it.

Satan is going to try to use the suffering of the tribulation to turn people -- even us Christians -- away from God, to get us to believe that God is really a cruel and unjust tyrant who only wants mankind to suffer and be tortured, while Satan is the one trying to help us. We need to be able to say, no, this suffering is not from God, but from evil and natural sources, just as we Christians have always had to suffer in wars, famines, plagues, persecutions, and natural disasters throughout history, from the beginning of the church down until this day.

In the pre-trib view, will those who "obtain salvation" in the tribulation be "appointed to wrath?" Aren't being "appointed to wrath" and "obtaining salvation" mutually exclusive?

"God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Note that it doesn't show anyone repenting during the tribulation, but says that the unbelievers "repented not" (Revelation 9:20-21, 16:9-11), and that at some point in the tribulation "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12). So it's possible the Christians we see in the tribulation are us, saved before the tribulation began. Jesus doesn't promise us a rapture before the tribulation.

Note that Revelation 4:1's "come up hither" was spoken only to John over 1900 years ago. This is why there's no coming of Christ or rapture and resurrection of the church found in Revelation 4:1, just as there isn’t at the "come up hither" spoken only to the two witnesses in Revelation 11:12.

Note that at the time the 24 elders and the 4 beasts are singing they are holding "golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" (Revelation 5:8); compare this with Revelation 8:4: "And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand." I believe the 24 elders are angelic rulers who, with the 4 beasts, have always worshipped God (Revelation 4:8-11) and offered up with song the prayers of the saints before God (Revelation 5:8-9). Note that the same Hebrew word translated "chief" in Daniel 10:13 to describe ruling angels is translated "elder" in 2 Chronicles 22:1 (Young's Literal Translation and Darby Translation), so that by Hebrew dictionary definition, we can read Daniel 10:13 as referring to "elder" angels. The 24 elders may be the same rank of angel that Paul calls "thrones" (Colossians 1:16).

Do some believe that the 4 beasts must also be the church because they also offer up the song of the redeemed to God (Revelation 5:8-9)?

Note that we Christians who will be in the tribulation are Christians after the cross and after Pentecost (i.e. not OT) who have washed our "robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14) and have "the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) and are "in the Lord" (Revelation 14:13), so we must be in his body (Ephesians 4:4-5), and everyone in the body of Christ is part of the bride of Christ, "for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church" (Ephesians 5:30-32). Note that Christ doesn't marry part of his body, but his entire body. Note that no verse in the Bible distinguishes between the body and the bride, or says that the bride is only part of the body.

Note that the Bible doesn't show the marriage of the church or the marriage supper happening before or during the tribulation, or in heaven; it doesn't announce the marriage and supper until the 2nd coming, immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-9, 14). "The bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage" (Matthew 25:10). I don't believe the Bible teaches a 3rd coming.

After the tribulation, I believe the rapture will gather us into the clouds to be married (Revelation 19:7) before Armageddon. The supper will be on the earth after Armageddon (Revelation 19:9, 17; Isaiah 25:5-9).

Note that the supper on the earth in Isaiah 25:5-9 is spoken of in connection with the same coming in which Jesus "will swallow up death in victory" (Isaiah 25:8); "Then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory" (1 Corinthians 15:54).

In the pre-trib view, why isn't the Lamb at the marriage of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7) or the supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:9) at any time we see him during the tribulation (Revelation 5:6-13; Revelation 6:1; Revelation 7:9-17; Revelation 14:1-4)?

 

"...a bag of gold could buy a piece of bread, I wish we'd all been ready...There's no time to change your mind, the Lord has come and you've been left behind..."

Hey, if Larry Norman sang about it, it must be so. Right?!?

 

Just a couple of points -- we most assuredly are NOT in the Millennium as no one is taking tributes to Jerusalem, the lion is for sure NOT lying with the lamb (unless the lamb is quite dead and the lion is hungry...), and we still endeavor to keep our children away from snakes.

Personally, I believe the Scriptures point to a pre-Trib Rapture. But I am willing to brace myself for being wrong. In other words, if I am wrong it will not damage my faith in Christ, but only remind me again not to have faith in myself!

 

Since Billions of people have died without having had experienced the rapture, and most of them felt they would be in the generation that would. I figure my odds of being raptured is in the billions to one area. Thus, not worth thinking about. Besides... what would change, or what would I do differently.

People who think about the 2nd coming are wasting time. They should be thinking and working on the 1st coming concerns.

[ October 11, 2002, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: post-it ]

 

Sorry my posts are so long. Yes, a lot of people on here have a Bible. But there are a good many surfers or lurkers who maybe don't have a Bible or know what the Bible book abbreviations are, where to find the Scriptures, etc. That's why I usually post the Scriptures. God says His Word won't return to Him void, right? If just one person reads one Scripture that causes them to seek the Saviour, isn't it worth the Bandwidth? Scripture using bandwidth seems to be more worthwhile from eternity's view than all the personal opinions posted on this board, IMHO, if just ONE person finds Jesus.

Also, some people don't wanna look up Scriptures. I'd rather have the verse or verses in question posted in front of me, too, most of the time.

Lot's of people won't click on links, either.

Not meaning to be offensive & no offense taken.

 

If the lost are blind to spiritual things, how could they be aware of the occurrance of the rapture?

God bless
Bro. Dallas

 

Note that no scripture promises us a rapture before the tribulation. Jesus says he will come to gather us together "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), and Paul says Jesus' coming to gather us together must "destroy" the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). We Christians must go through the coming tribulation (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13).

 

Matthew 24.37-41 doesn't speak toward a pre-trib. rapture?

If not, why is "one...taken and the other left?"

What is the other left too, if this ch. is not describing the pre-tribulation rapture?

God Bless
Bro. Dallas

[ October 12, 2002, 10:51 PM: Message edited by: Frogman ]

 

Double Amen Ken Hamilton!!!

 

I believe that in Matthew 24:37-41 Jesus is referring to the same "coming of the Son of man" as when he said "immediately after the tribulation of those days... they shall see the Son of man coming" (Matthew 24:29-30). I don't believe that Jesus taught a 3rd coming. Note that Jesus is speaking to the same believers, the same "ye," in Matthew 24:15 that he is speaking to in Matthew 24:42.

In the pre-trib view, how will "one taken, one left" be a secret pre-trib rapture and not an event at the revelation of Jesus, when "even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed... Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left" (Luke 17:30, 36)?

I believe the ones "taken" at the 2nd coming are unbelievers who are killed, just as Noah's flood "took" evil men away (Matthew 24:39-40). The carcasses of the ones "taken" are eaten by eagles and other birds (Luke 17:36-37, Job 39:30, Matthew 24:28, Revelation 19:21).

I believe the ones "left" at the 2nd coming (Matthew 24:40, Zechariah 14:16) will be survivors of the heathen nations that came against Jerusalem, who will be forced to worship Jesus in the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-18), and whom we will rule "with a rod of iron" during that time (Revelation 2:26-29, 5:9-10, 20:4). They will be the ones who will populate the millennium.

The ones "gathered together" at Jesus' 2nd coming are his elect (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31). So I believe Christians won't be the ones "taken" or the ones "left," but the ones "gathered together."

 

I Thess. 4.15 speaks of the "coming of the Lord."

In the same context we are told at vs. 17: "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

This is not a coming to the earth.

Bro. Dallas

 

I believe that we will be caught up to meet Jesus coming "in the clouds" on his way down to set his feet on the earth.

"The Son of man coming in the clouds...
with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they shall gather together his elect"
(Matthew 24:30-31).

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord...
with the trump of God...
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord"
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

I don't believe that the scriptures teach two different comings "in the clouds,"
or two different "last" trumps (1 Corinthians 15:52),
or two different raptures.

Because 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 shows Jesus "coming," but doesn't show him landing on the earth, some believe it refers to a part-way coming of Jesus whereby he comes down only as far as the clouds and then returns to heaven. But note that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 don't show Jesus landing on the earth either. Do some then believe that Matthew 24:29-31 and Revelation 19 are also not the 2nd coming?

Note that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 doesn't show Jesus returning to heaven. Acts 1:11 says Jesus will "come" just as he left: he won't come only as far as the clouds and then return to heaven again, just as he didn't leave only as far as the clouds and then return to earth again. He went from the Mount of Olives to the clouds to heaven, he will come from heaven to the clouds to the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4). There's no 3rd coming of Jesus.

 

Christ has two advents. The first was when He was born to Mary.

The rapture will occur when He returns for Believers. (Even post-tribs!) This is not a coming as Christ does not arrive at the earth. John 14:3 implies that Christ will come to take us to where He is, not to come to where we are.

This return will be FOR His saints as in I Thessalonians 4. Then we have the seven year tribulation, the marriage supper of the Lamb or the preperation at least, various events happening in Heaven and on Earth. Then...

The true Second coming will be WITH His saints. As in Revelation 19.

The differences in these two are insurmountable.

Matthew 24 is not speaking of the rapture but is a passage of Scripture speaking of post-rapture times.

And if this is the Tribulation, well, it's not so bad after all. If the terrors of the Great Tribulation can be reduced to what we experiance now in the "Tribulation" then the glories of eternity with God must be played down just as much. It looks like it will be a dull eternity.